Dorothy's red slippers, and man's ability to understand.

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gater
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Dorothy's red slippers, and man's ability to understand.

Post by gater » February 12th, 2020, 9:25 pm

Dorothy: Oh, will you help me? Can you help me?

Glinda: You don't need to be helped any longer. You've always had the power to go back to Kansas.

Dorothy: I have?

Scarecrow: Then why didn't you tell her before?

Glinda: She wouldn't have believed me. She had to learn it for herself.


There's an important lesson here, man can be told the truth, but most wont believe, until they learn it for themselves.

Dorthy always had the power to get back home , but didnt know how to use that power. Just as Man has the power to understand, IF he knows how to use that power.

The problem lies in Man's inability to grasp abstract concepts, so when trying to understand the Universe, most will rely on the "experts" in the field. Usually the experts are correct, thats why if you have an tooth issue you go to a dentist, a car issue, to your mechanic, etc. There is too much information for any one man to know it all.

We all have the ability to understand the truth about the Universe. Astrophysicists think they are the experts - they arent. They are limited by what they see in their telescopes, they refuse to accept Infinity as fact. They observe and theorize, and proclaim their theories as the truth - it isnt. A theory is just another way to say - "I dont know, but I think it might be like this..." and they proceed to explain what might be true.

The only path to understanding the Universe is through Logic. Because Man can only see a small portion of time and space. I discovered the truth, and its not that complicated, if you can grasp a few true concepts. The Universe has always been here, so any effort to discover a "beginning" is wasted effort. Space continues forever in every direction, logically and physically it has to.
Time is the measurement and labeling of the Constant Now. Time never slows or stops as Einstein theorized, and there was no beginning of time. The entire Universe experiences the same constant now.
The matter that is here, has always been here, acting according to the forces applied to it, forming everything from DNA strands to Galaxies.

Thats it, but just like Dorothy, you probably wont believe it, until you learn it for yourself.

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Steve3007
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Re: Dorothy's red slippers, and man's ability to understand.

Post by Steve3007 » February 13th, 2020, 8:07 am

viewtopic.php?p=341514#p341514

Gater, as a general rule you don't engage people in conversation. You assert something and then come back periodically to re-assert it and call some people morons.

Given that fairly well established pattern of behaviour, what incentive do people have to try to engage with you? Do you care if they engage with you?

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Re: Dorothy's red slippers, and man's ability to understand.

Post by RJG » February 13th, 2020, 8:58 am

Gater, you again are spot on. Until Steve (and others like him) are able to put aside their heavily indoctrinated beliefs, they will never grasp the Simple Logic to see/realize the truths of reality. (...they will never see the power of their "red slippers" (the power of Simple Logic)).

Our current education system has done us all a great disservice, as it stresses Science over Reason. Science that disregards Logic is very Bad Science. We might as well be teaching "fairy tales" for that matter. We now have many people running around this world worshiping, defending, and promoting these "fairy tales" (Bad Science), in spite of the power (truths) of Simple Logic (our "red slippers"?).

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Re: Dorothy's red slippers, and man's ability to understand.

Post by Steve3007 » February 13th, 2020, 9:06 am


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RJG
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Re: Dorothy's red slippers, and man's ability to understand.

Post by RJG » February 13th, 2020, 9:19 am

Sorry to break this news to you Steve, but --"Something coming from Nothing" is logically impossible.

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Terrapin Station
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Re: Dorothy's red slippers, and man's ability to understand.

Post by Terrapin Station » February 13th, 2020, 9:24 am

gater wrote:
February 12th, 2020, 9:25 pm
Dorothy: Oh, will you help me? Can you help me?

Glinda: You don't need to be helped any longer. You've always had the power to go back to Kansas.

Dorothy: I have?

Scarecrow: Then why didn't you tell her before?

Glinda: She wouldn't have believed me. She had to learn it for herself.


There's an important lesson here, man can be told the truth, but most wont believe, until they learn it for themselves.

Dorthy always had the power to get back home , but didnt know how to use that power. Just as Man has the power to understand, IF he knows how to use that power.

The problem lies in Man's inability to grasp abstract concepts, so when trying to understand the Universe, most will rely on the "experts" in the field. Usually the experts are correct, thats why if you have an tooth issue you go to a dentist, a car issue, to your mechanic, etc. There is too much information for any one man to know it all.

We all have the ability to understand the truth about the Universe. Astrophysicists think they are the experts - they arent. They are limited by what they see in their telescopes, they refuse to accept Infinity as fact. They observe and theorize, and proclaim their theories as the truth - it isnt. A theory is just another way to say - "I dont know, but I think it might be like this..." and they proceed to explain what might be true.

The only path to understanding the Universe is through Logic. Because Man can only see a small portion of time and space. I discovered the truth, and its not that complicated, if you can grasp a few true concepts. The Universe has always been here, so any effort to discover a "beginning" is wasted effort. Space continues forever in every direction, logically and physically it has to.
Time is the measurement and labeling of the Constant Now. Time never slows or stops as Einstein theorized, and there was no beginning of time. The entire Universe experiences the same constant now.
The matter that is here, has always been here, acting according to the forces applied to it, forming everything from DNA strands to Galaxies.

Thats it, but just like Dorothy, you probably wont believe it, until you learn it for yourself.
Aren't we lucky that you're an expert who knows the truth.

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Re: Dorothy's red slippers, and man's ability to understand.

Post by Terrapin Station » February 13th, 2020, 9:25 am

RJG wrote:
February 13th, 2020, 9:19 am
Sorry to break this news to you Steve, but --"Something coming from Nothing" is logically impossible.
So it should be easy to tell us the proposition being both asserted and denied. What is the proposition?

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Pattern-chaser
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Re: Dorothy's red slippers, and man's ability to understand.

Post by Pattern-chaser » February 13th, 2020, 11:03 am

gater wrote:
February 12th, 2020, 9:25 pm
The only path to understanding the Universe is through Logic. Because Man can only see a small portion of time and space. I discovered the truth, and its not that complicated, if you can grasp a few true concepts. The Universe has always been here, so any effort to discover a "beginning" is wasted effort. Space continues forever in every direction, logically and physically it has to.
Time is the measurement and labeling of the Constant Now. Time never slows or stops as Einstein theorized, and there was no beginning of time. The entire Universe experiences the same constant now.
The matter that is here, has always been here, acting according to the forces applied to it, forming everything from DNA strands to Galaxies.

Thats it, but just like Dorothy, you probably wont believe it, until you learn it for yourself.
That may be so. But it doesn't help that you seem to have listed quite a few assertions, with no justification. Yes, we all have to learn things for ourselves, but this doesn't justify you simply stating your One and Only Truths without some clue as to whether they're trustworthy or not. How have you come to know, for example, that "The Universe has always been here"? 🤔
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Re: Dorothy's red slippers, and man's ability to understand.

Post by chewybrian » February 13th, 2020, 11:11 am

gater wrote:
February 12th, 2020, 9:25 pm
The only path to understanding the Universe is through Logic. Because Man can only see a small portion of time and space. I discovered the truth, and its not that complicated, if you can grasp a few true concepts. The Universe has always been here, so any effort to discover a "beginning" is wasted effort. Space continues forever in every direction, logically and physically it has to.
Time is the measurement and labeling of the Constant Now. Time never slows or stops as Einstein theorized, and there was no beginning of time. The entire Universe experiences the same constant now.
The matter that is here, has always been here, acting according to the forces applied to it, forming everything from DNA strands to Galaxies.
Searching for a way to display my distaste for your methods here...
gater wrote:
February 12th, 2020, 9:25 pm
A theory is just another way to say - "I dont know, but I think it might be like this..." and they proceed to explain what might be true.
^Well, this will suffice. You are engaging in the very silliness you criticize, save the correctness of labeling a theory for what it is.

There is no more or less logic to saying that matter was always here than to saying it must have been created. Every effect has a cause, except everything; everything must have been somehow created, except everything--this is effectively what you are saying. You have no right to decide that space carries on to infinity because you can't get your mind around any other option. The universe is not limited to possibilities which are comfortable or simple enough for you or me to understand. Logic fails in this area, and only our intuition allows us to take a best guess, really a wild guess, as to what might be true. You've managed only a guess, yet you present it as certainty with no basis for doing so. You come up with a theory, which is fine if it is presented as such, yet you present it as fact, contrary to the science you embrace. Logic says nothing if the beginning assertion in the chain is only a wild guess.

So, *if* the wild guess turned out to be true, then some other conclusions would follow, but so what? This is not philosophy or science. Your methods more closely resemble those of a politician than a scientist or philosopher. If I vote a different way, this does not show that I am wrong, only that I disagree.
"If determinism holds, then past events have conspired to cause me to hold this view--it is out of my control. Either I am right about free will, or it is not my fault that I am wrong."

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Re: Dorothy's red slippers, and man's ability to understand.

Post by Pattern-chaser » February 13th, 2020, 11:14 am

RJG wrote:
February 13th, 2020, 9:19 am
Sorry to break this news to you Steve, but --"Something coming from Nothing" is logically impossible.
Doesn't that say something about logic, then? 🤔🤔🤔
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Re: Dorothy's red slippers, and man's ability to understand.

Post by Pattern-chaser » February 13th, 2020, 11:20 am

gater wrote:
February 12th, 2020, 9:25 pm
The only path to understanding the Universe is through Logic.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't logic something we use to scrutinise our ideas? Logic does not generate these ideas; logic is not creative in that way. First we need new ideas, then perhaps some gathering of empirical evidence, before we scrutinise what we have, very likely with the help of logic. Without new ideas, we cannot progress beyond where we are now. So logic alone cannot add to our understanding of the Universe, or of anything, really. 🤔 Creativity would also appear to be necessary. Perhaps there are other things too, that we need to increase our understanding?
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Re: Dorothy's red slippers, and man's ability to understand.

Post by chewybrian » February 13th, 2020, 11:29 am

Pattern-chaser wrote:
February 13th, 2020, 11:20 am
gater wrote:
February 12th, 2020, 9:25 pm
The only path to understanding the Universe is through Logic.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't logic something we use to scrutinise our ideas? Logic does not generate these ideas; logic is not creative in that way. First we need new ideas, then perhaps some gathering of empirical evidence, before we scrutinise what we have, very likely with the help of logic. Without new ideas, we cannot progress beyond where we are now. So logic alone cannot add to our understanding of the Universe, or of anything, really. 🤔 Creativity would also appear to be necessary. Perhaps there are other things too, that we need to increase our understanding?
Image
"If determinism holds, then past events have conspired to cause me to hold this view--it is out of my control. Either I am right about free will, or it is not my fault that I am wrong."

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Re: Dorothy's red slippers, and man's ability to understand.

Post by gater » February 13th, 2020, 1:19 pm

RJG wrote:
February 13th, 2020, 8:58 am
Gater, you again are spot on. Until Steve (and others like him) are able to put aside their heavily indoctrinated beliefs, they will never grasp the Simple Logic to see/realize the truths of reality. (...they will never see the power of their "red slippers" (the power of Simple Logic)).

Our current education system has done us all a great disservice, as it stresses Science over Reason. Science that disregards Logic is very Bad Science. We might as well be teaching "fairy tales" for that matter. We now have many people running around this world worshiping, defending, and promoting these "fairy tales" (Bad Science), in spite of the power (truths) of Simple Logic (our "red slippers"?).
Thanks RJG. Astrophysicists give us their theories, but then tell us that their theories are true. A theory is constructed when you dont know the truth. A theory is like saying, "i dont know, but it might be like this..."
I watched this show about Einstein and Hawking on the science channel recently. They continuously present their theories as truth. While none of them know the truth.
I've said for a while that Aristotle had a greater understanding of the Universe than today's scientists. At least he knew that space can not end, he called it "borderless", todays Scientists believe space is finite but expanding. (shaking my head) :)

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Re: Dorothy's red slippers, and man's ability to understand.

Post by RJG » February 13th, 2020, 2:37 pm

RJG wrote:Sorry to break this news to you Steve, but --"Something coming from Nothing" is logically impossible.
Terrapin Station wrote:So it should be easy to tell us the proposition being both asserted and denied. What is the proposition?
Steve asserts "Something comes from Nothing".
RJG denies "Something comes from Nothing".

"Something comes from Nothing" is not logically founded.
"Something comes from Nothing" is logically impossible; a self-contradiction; oxymoron.

Firstly, wouldn't you agree that "Something" does not 'logically' follow from "Nothing"? In other words, there is nothing that logically connects "Nothing" to "Something". Therefore "Something comes from Nothing" is not logically founded.

And secondly, wouldn't you further agree that if there WERE something that did logically connect "Nothing to Something", then this something is "Something" (and not-Nothing), which thereby defeats the nothing-hood of "Nothing"! In other words, if there were something (hint hint) that connected Nothing to Something, then this something is certainly not-Nothing! Therefore "Something comes from Nothing" is logically impossible; a self-contradiction; an oxymoron.


********
Pattern-chaser wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't logic something we use to scrutinise our ideas?
Okay, I'll correct you. :) -- Logic is our innate means of "making sense". Without it, we can only make "non-sense".

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Re: Dorothy's red slippers, and man's ability to understand.

Post by Terrapin Station » February 13th, 2020, 3:55 pm

RJG wrote:
February 13th, 2020, 2:37 pm
RJG wrote:Sorry to break this news to you Steve, but --"Something coming from Nothing" is logically impossible.
Terrapin Station wrote:So it should be easy to tell us the proposition being both asserted and denied. What is the proposition?
Steve asserts "Something comes from Nothing".
RJG denies "Something comes from Nothing".
lol--you don't have a contradiction via two people disagreeing with each other.
"Something comes from Nothing" is logically impossible; a self-contradiction; oxymoron.
So then state the non-equivocated proposition being both asserted and denied by it. Two people disagreeing with each other doesn't do it.
Firstly, wouldn't you agree that "Something" does not 'logically' follow from "Nothing"?
Saying "Something" does or does not "logically follow from nothing" is simply incoherent/a category error. Logic is about the implicational relationships of STATEMENTS. "Something" and "nothing" are not statements. So asking if "something logically follows from nothing" is just nonsense. Following requires statements (or variables standing for statements).
And secondly, wouldn't you further agree that if there WERE something that did logically connect "Nothing to Something", then this something is "Something" (and not-Nothing), which thereby defeats the nothing-hood of "Nothing"! In other words, if there were something (hint hint) that connected Nothing to Something, then this something is certainly not-Nothing! Therefore "Something comes from Nothing" is logically impossible; a self-contradiction; an oxymoron.
This is just gibberish, because it has nothing to do with logic.

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