"The Creator" is the Crucial Issue in Religion

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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Sculptor1
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Re: "The Creator" is the Crucial Issue in Religion

Post by Sculptor1 » March 9th, 2020, 8:17 pm

Scott Mayers wrote:
March 9th, 2020, 5:32 pm
Sculptor1 wrote:
March 8th, 2020, 1:32 pm

No. Quite the reverse, since such abuse can be manipulated to assert that there are god given meanings that transcend mere parole.

No. It's more a response to nonsense. Labels are just labels. What do you not understand by the arbitrariness of the signifier? obviously you not read what I said above.

What exactly are "these"?
I'm watching Zachary Quinto's In Search of series on Atlantis. It made me think of another example of which I need no formal dictionary to translate the meaning of "Atlantis": "atoll" + "antes" [a ring shaped reef + before]...
PLONK!!!
Yawn!!

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Re: "The Creator" is the Crucial Issue in Religion

Post by gad-fly » March 10th, 2020, 2:45 pm

chewybrian wrote:
March 8th, 2020, 9:48 am
Present awareness wrote:
March 8th, 2020, 1:12 am
Humans seem to believe that the universe only exists as far as we may detect and estimate an age of about 13.7 billion years. The Big Bang was just a local event in an infinite universe. Naturally, a statement like that may no be proved, but philosophy I not about proof but rather a way of looking at things.
This description is one that is a lot easier to get your head around than most. It feels right, but I can't prove it and don't believe anyone can. Yet, it seems the people who study these things and should know have many weird versions of the nature of the universe, and no broad agreement about any of them.
As I have mentioned at the beginning of this thread, Buddhism and Hinduism advocate universes one after the other.

Big Bang is an episode marking the beginning of the universe. This theory is based on the projection of scientific evidence. In this respect, it must be superior than empty speculation and no projection, even though it cannot be proved and there is no broad agreement. It is your pick to believe in one, or none.

Incidentally, Big Bang Theory and religion can accord, provided that religion is flexible enough to grow with time. All it takes is to add an omni-Creator/God before Big Bang.

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Re: "The Creator" is the Crucial Issue in Religion

Post by gater » March 13th, 2020, 9:13 pm

The Creator is the Sun, it turned the earth from burning mass of magma, that got caught in its orbit, into the spherical planet it is today.
And the energy of the Sun, along with the right conditions on earth, created, and sustains all life on this planet.

From Britannica.com - The Sun is the bestower of light and life to the totality of the cosmos; with his unblinking, all-seeing eye, he is the stern guarantor of justice; with the almost universal connection of light with enlightenment or illumination, the Sun is the source of wisdom.
These qualities—sovereignty, power of beneficence, justice, and wisdom—are central to any elite religious group, and it is within these contexts that a highly developed solar ideology is found. Kings ruled by the power of the sun and claimed descent from the sun. Solar deities, gods personifying the sun, are sovereign and all-seeing. The sun is often a prime attribute of or is identified with the Supreme Deity.

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Re: "The Creator" is the Crucial Issue in Religion

Post by Scott Mayers » March 13th, 2020, 9:24 pm

gater wrote:
March 13th, 2020, 9:13 pm
The Creator is the Sun, it turned the earth from burning mass of magma, that got caught in its orbit, into the spherical planet it is today.
And the energy of the Sun, along with the right conditions on earth, created, and sustains all life on this planet.

From Britannica.com - The Sun is the bestower of light and life to the totality of the cosmos; with his unblinking, all-seeing eye, he is the stern guarantor of justice; with the almost universal connection of light with enlightenment or illumination, the Sun is the source of wisdom.
These qualities—sovereignty, power of beneficence, justice, and wisdom—are central to any elite religious group, and it is within these contexts that a highly developed solar ideology is found. Kings ruled by the power of the sun and claimed descent from the sun. Solar deities, gods personifying the sun, are sovereign and all-seeing. The sun is often a prime attribute of or is identified with the Supreme Deity.
Agreed, ...at least in our local part of the Cosmos.

Aten (the spherical/circular shape containing the sun)
Ra (the energy in heat and light due to the 'rays' of the sun)
Ptah (the spark that initiated the sun ...as the sound of the crackle we hear from a fire)

Amen-Ra (the reflected light....as from the moon or any secondary source, such as some might think of Ptah being the first, for instance)

Sol- (solar, solitary, solo; that which existed alone in origin?) also...(Solid, that which can stand discretely, as opposed to liquids or gases [ie, fluids])
Sun/Son (depending on initial interpretation of the first sources, the sun may have been thought as secondary to a prior state of "nothing"?)

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Re: "The Creator" is the Crucial Issue in Religion

Post by gad-fly » March 15th, 2020, 4:51 pm

gater wrote:
March 13th, 2020, 9:13 pm
The Creator is the Sun
I began the thread with the "Creator" confined in the context of an entity predating (coming into existence before) and giving birth to all other entities, but not in the context of simply giving birth, like my mother, who may be described as a creator, but, seriously, not 'The Creator" with capital C. The Sun apparently postdates the Milky Way.

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Re: "The Creator" is the Crucial Issue in Religion

Post by gater » March 15th, 2020, 5:04 pm

The Universe has always been here, it did not have a creator. If you want to give credit to what was most responsible for creating Earth, and the life on Earth, it would have to be the Sun.

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Re: "The Creator" is the Crucial Issue in Religion

Post by Papus79 » March 15th, 2020, 6:11 pm

gater wrote:
March 15th, 2020, 5:04 pm
The Universe has always been here, it did not have a creator. If you want to give credit to what was most responsible for creating Earth, and the life on Earth, it would have to be the Sun.
No possibility that chaos couldn't have simply birthed it because that's what chaos does from time to time?
People aren't fundamentally good or fundamentally bad, we're fundamentally trying to survive. It's the environment and culture which tells us what that's going to be.

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Re: "The Creator" is the Crucial Issue in Religion

Post by gater » March 15th, 2020, 6:59 pm

No, the area of Universe has always been here, matter has been forming galaxies and everything else, forever.
Man is wired to beiieve in beginnings, most things have a beginning, but not time or space.

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Re: "The Creator" is the Crucial Issue in Religion

Post by Papus79 » March 15th, 2020, 8:08 pm

And we're so glued to Adam and Eve or 'sky daddy' in that event that our fear of death or fear of significance is woven through the mathematics of general relativity.
People aren't fundamentally good or fundamentally bad, we're fundamentally trying to survive. It's the environment and culture which tells us what that's going to be.

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Re: "The Creator" is the Crucial Issue in Religion

Post by Papus79 » March 15th, 2020, 8:09 pm

*insignificance
People aren't fundamentally good or fundamentally bad, we're fundamentally trying to survive. It's the environment and culture which tells us what that's going to be.

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Re: "The Creator" is the Crucial Issue in Religion

Post by gad-fly » March 19th, 2020, 12:09 am

gad-fly wrote:
March 1st, 2020, 12:55 am

In Chinese mythology, chaos and harmony as one, termed Tai-chi, has been around until the beginning of time, when it gave birth to that double helix chasing each other inside a circle. In turn, this circle gave birth to four ways, which in turn gave birth to eight sooths, which in turn gave birth to sixteen something which I cannot translate, and so on.
It appears some of us would favor the reinvention of Chinese mythology to explain Creation of the universe, even though they may not yet be prepared to identify chaos with harmony. Be that as it may, mythology is at most nativity belief, but not religion. To respond to the title, I would suggest as the conclusion that "the Creator" is crucial in religion.

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Re: "The Creator" is the Crucial Issue in Religion

Post by Scott Mayers » March 20th, 2020, 9:19 pm

gad-fly wrote:
March 19th, 2020, 12:09 am
gad-fly wrote:
March 1st, 2020, 12:55 am

In Chinese mythology, chaos and harmony as one, termed Tai-chi, has been around until the beginning of time, when it gave birth to that double helix chasing each other inside a circle. In turn, this circle gave birth to four ways, which in turn gave birth to eight sooths, which in turn gave birth to sixteen something which I cannot translate, and so on.
It appears some of us would favor the reinvention of Chinese mythology to explain Creation of the universe, even though they may not yet be prepared to identify chaos with harmony. Be that as it may, mythology is at most nativity belief, but not religion. To respond to the title, I would suggest as the conclusion that "the Creator" is crucial in religion.
Although I respect your intent, the term "creator" is also of 'science' but called, "the source", and what I was trying to expess. What you MEAN, likely, is that the meaning of the "source" cause of things is turned from being a neutral concept of Nature, into something that is 'athropomorphized' into a source that had humans as an intentional result and 'end' for Nature itself. Does this spell out what you mean better? If so, I agree.

I think that it is an accident that occurs by mistaking a prior 'secular' factor in history that gets distorted in a way that lacks apparent meaning to a later generation. The retrofit the more generic 'source' questions that some rational minority of individuals thougth out with a 'scientiic' or rational mind.

For instance, imagine one member of a tribe is observant of the stars and notices patterns. He organizes mnemonic devices to help remember the postions of the stars and names those things that move, 'planets' with characteristics that help remember how they move. Such a person might notice that the mnemonic devices help to infer a pattern that indicates when spring is coming, for instance. Being the only one to have thought of this, he tries to explain this to his tribe mates. However, everyone things he is nuts until it turns out his utility of this behaviour proves true by prediction. Although the others may not understand HOW he figured this out, from the simplest explanations of how he might have presented his means of memorizing the patterns, the others will think that he used some kind of PREMONITION powers using the labels or models as the reality rather than understanding that the labels were just used to help.

When you get a two-year-old who doesn't understand how you 'know' that spring is coming, this adult tries to explain it but the child (or adult) becomes impatient in understanding (or expressing). Thus, the shortcut for the kid is to give up short of the cartooning of the explanation. The constellations used to help the 'scientist' reason gets too confusing and is then turned into the literal story of the symbols that transfer the original secular meaning into the absurd.

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Re: "The Creator" is the Crucial Issue in Religion

Post by gad-fly » March 21st, 2020, 12:43 am

Scott Mayers wrote:
March 20th, 2020, 9:19 pm
gad-fly wrote:
March 19th, 2020, 12:09 am


It appears some of us would favor the reinvention of Chinese mythology to explain Creation of the universe, even though they may not yet be prepared to identify chaos with harmony. Be that as it may, mythology is at most nativity belief, but not religion. To respond to the title, I would suggest as the conclusion that "the Creator" is crucial in religion.
Although I respect your intent, the term "creator" is also of 'science' but called, "the source", and what I was trying to expess. What you MEAN, likely, is that the meaning of the "source" cause of things is turned from being a neutral concept of Nature, into something that is 'athropomorphized' into a source that had humans as an intentional result and 'end' for Nature itself. Does this spell out what you mean better? If so, I agree.

I think that it is an accident that occurs by mistaking a prior 'secular' factor in history that gets distorted in a way that lacks apparent meaning to a later generation. The retrofit the more generic 'source' questions that some rational minority of individuals thougth out with a 'scientiic' or rational mind.

For instance, imagine one member of a tribe is observant of the stars and notices patterns. He organizes mnemonic devices to help remember the postions of the stars and names those things that move, 'planets' with characteristics that help remember how they move. Such a person might notice that the mnemonic devices help to infer a pattern that indicates when spring is coming, for instance. Being the only one to have thought of this, he tries to explain this to his tribe mates. However, everyone things he is nuts until it turns out his utility of this behaviour proves true by prediction. Although the others may not understand HOW he figured this out, from the simplest explanations of how he might have presented his means of memorizing the patterns, the others will think that he used some kind of PREMONITION powers using the labels or models as the reality rather than understanding that the labels were just used to help.

When you get a two-year-old who doesn't understand how you 'know' that spring is coming, this adult tries to explain it but the child (or adult) becomes impatient in understanding (or expressing). Thus, the shortcut for the kid is to give up short of the cartooning of the explanation. The constellations used to help the 'scientist' reason gets too confusing and is then turned into the literal story of the symbols that transfer the original secular meaning into the absurd.
In dictionary: the creator (with small c) is a person that creates or originates (as the source); The Creator (with capital C) is an epithet of God. The present thread clearly focus on "The Creator". I may have caused some confusion, but Chinese mythology is mentioned since mythology and religion share the same philosophical roots.

I can hardly see any difference in the ancient Chinese tracing Taichi (chaos + harmony) as the source of the universe, and modern thinkers tracing the same because it is in the nature of chaos to create. Indeed, I prefer taichi because it is so much more interesting.

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Re: "The Creator" is the Crucial Issue in Religion

Post by Mlw » March 26th, 2020, 3:39 pm

The question of creation has never been so acute. The "blind natural process" can only partially explain the world. The universe was born extremely fine-tuned. There was no blind natural process that took place. In the biological record, new species have appeared abruptly, as in the Cambrian explosion (see Darwin's Doubt" with Stephen Meyer | YouTube). In a few days, Stephen Meyer will release a new book: The Return of the God Hypothesis: Compelling Scientific Evidence for the Existence of God.

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Re: "The Creator" is the Crucial Issue in Religion

Post by creation » March 26th, 2020, 11:16 pm

gad-fly wrote:
March 1st, 2020, 12:55 am
In Christianity, the Holy Bible starts with Genesis: In the beginning, God creates Heaven and Earth. The Earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters. Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light . . . God saw all that He made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

In Islamism, the Qur’an states the all-knowing Allah created the heavens and the Earth, and all that is between them, in six yawm (each ranging from 1,000 to 50,000 years).

In Hinduism, There are many universes, with each following the destruction of the earlier, as created by Lord Brahma, maintained by Lord Vishnu, and destroyed by Lord Shiva. These three gods are all forms of Supreme One and part of the Supreme One. The Supreme One is behind and beyond all.

In Buddhism, Creation occurs repeatedly throughout time in cycles. According to Brian@Brainschell.com: “In the beginning of each cycle, land forms, in darkness, on the surface of the water. Beings who populated the universe in the previous cycle are reborn; some of them become the “new” humans in the new universe. Suffering and misery reign. That is where we stand today. Eventually, the universe breaks down; all living creatures return to the soul life, and the cycle repeats. There is no ‘Creation’ in the usual Christian-like way of looking at it. Some older Buddhist stories do indeed involve some kind of god or gods making the creation happen. Today, these are generally accepted as symbolic stories.”

Taoism is pantheistic in its view of the material world. The origin of creation is explained: "Tao is its own source, its own root. Before heaven and earth existed it was there. It gave spirituality to the spirits and gods; it gave birth to heaven and to earth." The word Tao is nothing less than an expression of the profound unity of the universe and of the path human beings must take to join rather than to disturb that unity. Translated from Chinese as Path or Way, Tao is more a beacon than an entity.

In Chinese mythology, chaos and harmony as one, termed Tai-chi, has been around until the beginning of time, when it gave birth to that double helix chasing each other inside a circle. In turn, this circle gave birth to four ways, which in turn gave birth to eight sooths, which in turn gave birth to sixteen something which I cannot translate, and so on.

No religion worth its salt can afford to evade the issue of ‘Creation’ without losing the ardent faith of its believers. The issue of there being a ‘Creator’ is so crucial that some would deny Buddhism as a genuine religion in its absence of a viable creator. In the same vein, Taoism is no more than the study of harmony in nature which must be accepted with due respect or suffer the dire consequence. Be that as it may, installing a creator would beg the question right-away: Where is the Creator from, as he apparently cannot create himself?
Firstly, the Creator is not a "he", and the sooner that ridiculous idea and notion is rid from thought the better.

Secondly, there was no one off Creation. Every thing is IN Creation.

The Creator of every thing is just the Universe, Itself. The 'Universe' just being ALL-THERE-IS.

The Universe was never created, It is always IN creation.

Everything is just in creation.
gad-fly wrote:
March 1st, 2020, 12:55 am
In the absence of a definitive answer to this question, some would argue for the dismissal of the said creator as well as the religion, on what they would declare on sound mathematical and/or logical ground. I am not convinced that such argument is robust enough to withstand reasonable doubt, that a creator may always be around in the first place. If indeed God the Creator can be so disposed, sadly or fortunately we may still be vested in the serenity of Buddhism as we quietly accept the path recommended by Taoism, at the same time as we enjoy the rumination of mysticism.
There is a definitive answer to your question, 'Where is the Creator from?, which aligns with all religions:

The Creator is just HERE-NOW. Always has been and always will be. Or, more correctly, always IS.

The Creator is not from some 'where'. The Creator is always HERE.

This Creator is also always creating Its Self. Or, more correctly, always in creation.

Whatever shape and form the Universe is IN, then that is thee Creator, Itself.

Also, being continually in creation means that this Self IS evolving to better Know Thyself.

Once the question, 'Who am 'I'?' has been answered properly and correctly, then ALL the answers regarding thee Creator become known and fully understood.

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