"The Creator" is the Crucial Issue in Religion

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
creation
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Re: "The Creator" is the Crucial Issue in Religion

Post by creation » March 26th, 2020, 11:37 pm

Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑
March 3rd, 2020, 7:32 am
Scott Mayers wrote: ↑
March 2nd, 2020, 11:01 am
The "Tao" and/or "Dao", as well as "Tai" were etymologically rooted terms for "two things in one", like that "Good and Evil" both are in the 'source'. Note too that "three" states also come in play as meaning that the third is the 'con-tra-diction'. [con = "with", tra- "three", -diction = "state(s)"]
Etymological dictionary wrote:Contradiction [...] from contra "against" + dicere "to say, speak"

I am stunned when people make stuff up just to support their opinions.
Really?

This behavior has been going on for thousands of years already, and I would suggest been done by absolutely every adult when wanting to support their own opinions.
Pattern-chaser wrote: ↑
March 3rd, 2020, 7:32 am
For years I refused to believe that anyone would do such a thing. 😳 Now I have been forced to accept that it happens all the time, all over the place. The practice has even reached philosophy forums, the last place such things belong, you might've thought.... 😰
Some might argue that 'making stuff up just to support one's own opinions' might have started when the practice known as "philosophy" began.

For only when one is wanting to argue that their opinion is true and right (philosophizing) might be when starting to 'making stuff up' actually began.

What reason would there be for anyone wanting to 'make stuff up' prior to that?

creation
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Re: "The Creator" is the Crucial Issue in Religion

Post by creation » March 27th, 2020, 12:13 am

gad-fly wrote: ↑
March 7th, 2020, 1:02 pm
This is not a thread about whether to believe in God's existence. Nor is it an argument that you should adhere or belong to some religious group. This is a thread to discuss the role of the Creator in religion in general.

By God, let us say he is the Creator, the first entity that we have ever known. If indeed, he is what brings us into being, for which we should be grateful. He is transcendent, defined as: Theol. (of God) having continuous existence outside the created world; free from the limitations inherent in matter. But why should we bother about him. He is great, so what, as long as he leaves us alone. We can worship him at our discretion, or we can carry on dong what can be more important.
But who really 'bothers' about this?

You asked, Why should we bother about "him". My question is, does anyone really bother?

Is there an answer to; Why should we bother about anything?

Either some one "bothers" about some thing, or they do not "bother". I am not sure that there would be an answer to, Why should people "bother"?

If people choose to "bother" about some thing, then that is of there own choosing. I do not see how a "should" would be involved in this.

Asking; Why someone 'should' bother to do what will help in creating a Truly peaceful "world" for everyone, then that is one thing of which an answer could be given.

But asking; Why someone 'should' bother about "him", (a yet unknown thing by most), is like asking, Why some one 'should' bother about any other unknown thing? Is there even anyone "bothering" about unknown things?
gad-fly wrote: ↑
March 7th, 2020, 1:02 pm
This brings in a crucial point. He has influence and he would exercise that influence at his discretion. He is the shepherd. You shall not want. Make no mistake, though. He guides you through the valley of death at his discretion. You must be his lamb, to follow his order. You must be good, because Santa Claus is coming to town.
What is the so called "crucial point" here?

You imply "he" is important, but then you imply "he" is not even real? So, what was the point?

By the way, Why 'should' you "bother" about santa claus here?
gad-fly wrote: ↑
March 7th, 2020, 1:02 pm
But it is more than that. What if you already have enough toys to play with? You better be good, because RETRIBUTION is also coming to town. Carrot is accompanied by stick, and it is a heavy stick. Fear the stick more than wishing for the carrot. This is what turns many into religion. and why its staying power will be sustained. Atheist: beware.
If, as you say above in this post, that this thread is not about whether to believe in God's existence, but this thread is about the role of the Creator in religion, then you seem to have contradicted yourself by the end of this post.

Is there a "role" of the Creator in religion in general?

From what I have observed, there are just many stories about a Creator. And the varying different stories of the Creator are just that; Stories about Creation.

As for a role of some thing, which is implied to be 'bigger' than just human beings, then that role is: There is some thing just, that KNOWS what is Right in Life.

ALL human beings have access to this just Thing. And, if, and when, human beings start looking at things from this bigger perspective, instead of from their own individual, very little perspectives, then they have the Right and True guidance from which to voluntarily follow from.

creation
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Re: "The Creator" is the Crucial Issue in Religion

Post by creation » March 27th, 2020, 12:19 am

gad-fly wrote: ↑
March 8th, 2020, 9:59 am
Scott Mayers wrote: ↑
March 7th, 2020, 5:44 pm

But, as an athiest myself, I argue that should we be sincerely the worst risk, I ask you what would be more likely the case that such athiests already DO exist in power behind the guise of the leaders of religion? Wouldn't the most 'evil' characteristic of us athiests be to rule THROUGH religion? What risk would such athiests fear of consequences for BEING so 'evil' by doing so?

So "SHEEP, beware!" should be the more accurate mantra!
My "Atheist: Beware" is an afterthought in the context of Atheism not able to exhibit similar carrot and stick to potential support. I do not understand what risk you are talking about as far as atheist is concerned. Is it the risk of landing on the wrong side of Armageddon? If you are an atheist, you don't care about that, do you?
A so called "atheist", like all people are forced to follow human made up rules.

"atheists" are continually led and pushed by the "carrot and stick" of human law.

If anyone goes against human law, then they risk being punished, judged, and/or ridiculed.

They risk landing on the wrong side of the law. Either that be parents law, adults law, societal laws, or just laws in general, being on the wrong side of any of them can be worse than the wrong side of so called "armageddon".

I am sure there would be plenty of so called "atheists" who care about that, a lot.

gad-fly
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Re: "The Creator" is the Crucial Issue in Religion

Post by gad-fly » March 27th, 2020, 12:34 am

creation wrote: ↑
March 26th, 2020, 11:16 pm
gad-fly wrote: ↑
March 1st, 2020, 12:55 am

Taoism is pantheistic in its view of the material world. The origin of creation is explained: "Tao is its own source, its own root. Before heaven and earth existed it was there. It gave spirituality to the spirits and gods; it gave birth to heaven and to earth." The word Tao is nothing less than an expression of the profound unity of the universe and of the path human beings must take to join rather than to disturb that unity. Translated from Chinese as Path or Way, Tao is more a beacon than an entity.
Firstly, the Creator is not a "he", and the sooner that ridiculous idea and notion is rid from thought the better.

Secondly, there was no one off Creation. Every thing is IN Creation.

The Creator of every thing is just the Universe, Itself. The 'Universe' just being ALL-THERE-IS.

The Universe was never created, It is always IN creation.

Everything is just in creation.
Let me pay due respect to your belief. Just to clarify if you don't mind:
What pronoun should we use on The Creator: he, He, She, or It?
Is your belief a religion?
Would you agree that your belief aligns somewhat with Taoism and Chinese mythology of tai-chi?
Can we do away with the term "God"?

creation
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Re: "The Creator" is the Crucial Issue in Religion

Post by creation » March 27th, 2020, 12:48 am

gad-fly wrote: ↑
March 8th, 2020, 10:12 am
Present awareness wrote: ↑
March 8th, 2020, 1:12 am
1. Who created God?
Answer: God always existed and created the universe

Or 2.The universe always existed.

Humans seem to believe that the universe only exists as far as we may detect and estimate an age of about 13.7 billion years. The Big Bang was just a local event in an infinite universe. Naturally, a statement like that may no be proved, but philosophy I not about proof but rather a way of looking at things.
As I have said, "This is not a thread about God/Creator's existence/necessity." Excuse me if I desist from joining the discussion here. Let us focus on the role played by (assumed) God Almighty with carrot and stick in his religious organization. Does that make him crucial?
If God is thee Creator, then I would highly suggest that that makes God, CRUCIAL. If there was no Creator, then there is obviously NO creation. If nothing is created, then there is NO 'you'.

Now, if we truly want to focus on the so called "role" played by God, in the concept of Almighty with carrot and stick in religious organizationS, then let us do away with the "his" 'religious organization' concept to start with.

Obviously, any and all 'rules' in any and all human made up religions, are only human made up rules.

The reason they are said to be 'God's rules' is because ALL knowing of what is Right in Life comes from what God actually IS. Every human beings KNOWS what is Right in Life, without having to be told this through religions. And, what is wrong with this KNOWING being told through religions is every person puts their own 'twist' on It.

God just KNOWS, thus we ALL KNOW, that if we just do what is Right in Life, and follow that concept of the carrot and stick, then we will ALL being living exactly how we ALL Truly want and desire to be living NOW.

Human beings, sadly and unfortunately, turned the concept of carrot and stick into 'you' follow where and how 'I' "tell you to go". They also, worse still, turned the concept of just the stick into hitting and forcing 'you' to go where 'I' "want you to go".

God, is within guiding every one. But every one, besides the very young, is too busy going wherever they want to go, or being led by what they learned to want and desire from other human beings; money, lust, et cetera.

creation
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Re: "The Creator" is the Crucial Issue in Religion

Post by creation » March 27th, 2020, 1:10 am

gad-fly wrote: ↑
March 27th, 2020, 12:34 am
creation wrote: ↑
March 26th, 2020, 11:16 pm


Firstly, the Creator is not a "he", and the sooner that ridiculous idea and notion is rid from thought the better.

Secondly, there was no one off Creation. Every thing is IN Creation.

The Creator of every thing is just the Universe, Itself. The 'Universe' just being ALL-THERE-IS.

The Universe was never created, It is always IN creation.

Everything is just in creation.
Let me pay due respect to your belief. Just to clarify if you don't mind:
Let me make this ABSOLUTELY CLEAR: I do NOT have a "belief". So, there is nothing I have said that you have to "pay due respect to".

And, to 'clarify' from me first is what I Truly seek and desire. So, I do not mind at all that you clarify.
gad-fly wrote: ↑
March 27th, 2020, 12:34 am
What pronoun should we use on The Creator: he, He, She, or It?
You are absolutely free to choose and use whatever you like, but to call some 'thing' what 'it' is not, is not helpful in learning and understanding, nor in finding Truth.

To me, there is never a "should" in relation to what one says or does, but saying and doing some things are just more helpful and more constructive than saying and doing other things are.

I call thee Creator, Creator, or It.
gad-fly wrote: ↑
March 27th, 2020, 12:34 am
Is your belief a religion?
What "belief" do you think or believe I have?

My views are NOT a religion.

My views, just like everyone else's are, they have come from what I have observed, up to now.
gad-fly wrote: ↑
March 27th, 2020, 12:34 am
Would you agree that your belief aligns somewhat with Taoism and Chinese mythology of tai-chi?
I do not have a "belief".

My views are MINE ALONE, and when interested and when looked into deeply enough align with thee Truth of things.
gad-fly wrote: ↑
March 27th, 2020, 12:34 am
Can we do away with the term "God"?
We can do away with absolutely any and every thing. It all comes down to; What is 'it' that one is looking for, or 'trying to' find?

Only when a very specific question is posed, or a very specific goal is sought, then thee true, right, and correct answer can be given, and the outcome achieved or reached.

creation
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Re: "The Creator" is the Crucial Issue in Religion

Post by creation » March 27th, 2020, 2:22 am

gad-fly wrote: ↑
March 27th, 2020, 12:34 am
Would you agree that your belief aligns somewhat with Taoism and Chinese mythology of tai-chi?
Can we do away with the term "God"?
If we want to look at my 'views' in line with 'taichi', and we are saying that 'tai-chi' is (chaos + harmony) is the source of the universe, which I have never heard of nor thought of before, then let us proceed.

To me, we can do away with the term 'God' here, and just replace it with the term 'Universe'. If we use the word 'Universe' to me ALL-THERE-IS, then the Universe, which has always been in Existence, and in Creation, is made up of two fundamental things. They are 'space' and 'matter'. To me, 'space', itself, is invisible and is just the distance between visible particles of 'matter'.

Particles of matter are continually moving and always "bumping" into each other or continually interacting with each other, like in a 'chaotic' fashion. Space, however, could be seen as being like in complete harmony. So, I could agree my views align with tai-chi (chaos/matter + harmony/space).

I have said previously that for absolutely any thing to be created there needs to be at least two things prior, which come together. The co-existence of space and matter always being together, or always interacting or coming together, is what is always creating thee Universe, Itself. From this perspective, matter/chaos + space/harmony is the eternal source of the Universe.

This source, matter + space, (the two which make/create the One) has always been existing as it could not possibly be any other way.

By the way, I have also previously said that it will be discovered and come to be seen that (the theory of) Every thing has an opposite, with equilibrium, which also agrees and aligns with tai-chi (chaos + harmony).

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Re: "The Creator" is the Crucial Issue in Religion

Post by Mlw » March 27th, 2020, 3:09 am

creation wrote: ↑
March 26th, 2020, 11:16 pm

Firstly, the Creator is not a "he", and the sooner that ridiculous idea and notion is rid from thought the better.

Secondly, there was no one off Creation. Every thing is IN Creation.

The Creator of every thing is just the Universe, Itself. The 'Universe' just being ALL-THERE-IS.

The Universe was never created, It is always IN creation.

Everything is just in creation.
It seems like mathematicals are not in creation. Mathematical truths seem to transcend the world. Many believe in mathematical Platonism, among them Sir Roger Penrose (See On Whether A Platonic Objectivity Can Exist Independent of Human Minds.

It seems that not everything is in the material universe. It follows from GΓΆdel's theorems that no closed logical system can exist without relying on truths which transcend the system. So there must be Truths that transcend the universe.

creation
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Re: "The Creator" is the Crucial Issue in Religion

Post by creation » March 27th, 2020, 3:49 am

Mlw wrote: ↑
March 27th, 2020, 3:09 am
creation wrote: ↑
March 26th, 2020, 11:16 pm

Firstly, the Creator is not a "he", and the sooner that ridiculous idea and notion is rid from thought the better.

Secondly, there was no one off Creation. Every thing is IN Creation.

The Creator of every thing is just the Universe, Itself. The 'Universe' just being ALL-THERE-IS.

The Universe was never created, It is always IN creation.

Everything is just in creation.
It seems like mathematicals are not in creation. Mathematical truths seem to transcend the world. Many believe in mathematical Platonism, among them Sir Roger Penrose (See On Whether A Platonic Objectivity Can Exist Independent of Human Minds.
Did 'mathematicals' always exist?

Or, is 'mathematicals' (whatever that is exactly) evolving, and thus in a process of creation?

How exactly could so called "mathematical truths" transcend the world, exactly?

If so called "mathematical truths" do not exist in the world, then where do they exist exactly?
Mlw wrote: ↑
March 27th, 2020, 3:09 am
It seems that not everything is in the material universe. It follows from GΓΆdel's theorems that no closed logical system can exist without relying on truths which transcend the system. So there must be Truths that transcend the universe.
So, exactly how could the logical system known as the "Universe", whether closed or not, be already existing now, as it would be impossible for anything to be transcending this system?

How exactly just because some "theorem", known by some name "godel", says something, then that instantly means; Therefore there MUST be Truths that transcend the Universe? Especially when I specifically used and wrote the words: If we use the word 'Universe' to mean ALL-THERE-IS,

1. I NEVER said, "Everything is in the material universe".

2.Provide an example of a Truth that transcends the Universe. And/or provide an example of absolutely anything that could transcend the Universe, Itself.

3. If you can or do not, then how does a closed logical system like the Universe, Itself, exist without relying on truths which transcend this system?

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Re: "The Creator" is the Crucial Issue in Religion

Post by gad-fly » March 27th, 2020, 3:53 pm

creation wrote: ↑
March 27th, 2020, 1:10 am
gad-fly wrote: ↑
March 27th, 2020, 12:34 am

Let me pay due respect to your belief. Just to clarify if you don't mind:
Let me make this ABSOLUTELY CLEAR: I do NOT have a "belief". So, there is nothing I have said that you have to "pay due respect to".

I call thee Creator, Creator, or It.

My views are NOT a religion.
Thank you. I have no more question. By the way, do you practice tai-chi boxing? Sorry for the personal question.

creation
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Re: "The Creator" is the Crucial Issue in Religion

Post by creation » March 27th, 2020, 9:33 pm

gad-fly wrote: ↑
March 27th, 2020, 3:53 pm
creation wrote: ↑
March 27th, 2020, 1:10 am


Let me make this ABSOLUTELY CLEAR: I do NOT have a "belief". So, there is nothing I have said that you have to "pay due respect to".

I call thee Creator, Creator, or It.

My views are NOT a religion.
Thank you. I have no more question. By the way, do you practice tai-chi boxing? Sorry for the personal question.
Nah. I could not fight my way out of a wet paper bag.

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Re: "The Creator" is the Crucial Issue in Religion

Post by gad-fly » March 27th, 2020, 10:00 pm

Scott Mayers wrote: ↑
March 7th, 2020, 5:44 pm
gad-fly wrote: ↑
March 7th, 2020, 1:02 pm

But it is more than that. What if you already have enough toys to play with? You better be good, because RETRIBUTION is also coming to town. Carrot is accompanied by stick, and it is a heavy stick. Fear the stick more than wishing for the carrot. This is what turns many into religion. and why its staying power will be sustained. Atheist: beware.
But, as an athiest myself, I argue that should we be sincerely the worst risk, I ask you what would be more likely the case that such athiests already DO exist in power behind the guise of the leaders of religion? Wouldn't the most 'evil' characteristic of us athiests be to rule THROUGH religion? What risk would such athiests fear of consequences for BEING so 'evil' by doing so?

So "SHEEP, beware!" should be the more accurate mantra!
It appears I owe you a missed reply on you as an theist.

Offering both carrot and stick is a tactical move. The alternatives can be to offer only one. The absence of both in hand would put you a disadvantaged position comparatively, and you should beware. Atheist ruling through the guise of religious leader is a strategy. There must be more evil characteristic around, I suppose. If forced by circumstance, it may not even be evil, like the emperor with no gown on. What risk? Being exposed.

I raise "carrot and stick" because atheist has no heaven and afterlife to offer to the flock. Stick? Same for both through our life.

creation
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Re: "The Creator" is the Crucial Issue in Religion

Post by creation » March 27th, 2020, 10:39 pm

gad-fly wrote: ↑
March 27th, 2020, 10:00 pm
Scott Mayers wrote: ↑
March 7th, 2020, 5:44 pm

But, as an athiest myself, I argue that should we be sincerely the worst risk, I ask you what would be more likely the case that such athiests already DO exist in power behind the guise of the leaders of religion? Wouldn't the most 'evil' characteristic of us athiests be to rule THROUGH religion? What risk would such athiests fear of consequences for BEING so 'evil' by doing so?

So "SHEEP, beware!" should be the more accurate mantra!
It appears I owe you a missed reply on you as an theist.

Offering both carrot and stick is a tactical move. The alternatives can be to offer only one. The absence of both in hand would put you a disadvantaged position comparatively, and you should beware. Atheist ruling through the guise of religious leader is a strategy. There must be more evil characteristic around, I suppose. If forced by circumstance, it may not even be evil, like the emperor with no gown on. What risk? Being exposed.

I raise "carrot and stick" because atheist has no heaven and afterlife to offer to the flock. Stick? Same for both through our life.
But there is the exact same 'heaven' and 'afterlife' for "theists", as there is for "atheists", and in fact is for all peoples.

What 'heaven' and 'afterlife' actually refers to is NOT what just about all people think it is.

gad-fly
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Re: "The Creator" is the Crucial Issue in Religion

Post by gad-fly » March 28th, 2020, 10:35 am

creation wrote: ↑
March 27th, 2020, 10:39 pm
[
I raise "carrot and stick" because atheist has no heaven and afterlife to offer to the flock. Stick? Same for both through our life.
But there is the exact same 'heaven' and 'afterlife' for "theists", as there is for "atheists", and in fact is for all peoples.

What 'heaven' and 'afterlife' actually refers to is NOT what just about all people think it is.
[/quote]

In religion, carrot and stick are "heaven and hell". The distinct prospect of both brings the issue into focus, especially for those in distress awaiting salvation. How much to believe (or think) defines the boundary for conversion.

In this respect, the crucial Issue in Religion is more "Heaven and Hell". The Creator is merely an agent or channel to raise or damn in Armageddon.

creation
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Re: "The Creator" is the Crucial Issue in Religion

Post by creation » March 29th, 2020, 3:35 am

gad-fly wrote: ↑
March 28th, 2020, 10:35 am
creation wrote: ↑
March 27th, 2020, 10:39 pm



But there is the exact same 'heaven' and 'afterlife' for "theists", as there is for "atheists", and in fact is for all peoples.

What 'heaven' and 'afterlife' actually refers to is NOT what just about all people think it is.
In religion, carrot and stick are "heaven and hell". The distinct prospect of both brings the issue into focus, especially for those in distress awaiting salvation.
But 'who' is in 'distress' awaiting salvation?

What are those 'ones' awaiting salvation 'from' exactly?

All are living in either 'heaven' or in 'hell'. But once their gone, their gone. So what could one possibly be awaiting 'for'?
gad-fly wrote: ↑
March 28th, 2020, 10:35 am
How much to believe (or think) defines the boundary for conversion.
How much to believe (or think) In regards to 'what' exactly?
gad-fly wrote: ↑
March 28th, 2020, 10:35 am
In this respect, the crucial Issue in Religion is more "Heaven and Hell". The Creator is merely an agent or channel to raise or damn in Armageddon.
What is 'armageddon', to you?

What exactly is the 'crucial issue' here, to you?

And, what 'heaven' and 'hell' actually are, are already KNOWN, by you, correct?

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