Why is Egoism bad? Because it is not.

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gad-fly
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Why is Egoism bad? Because it is not.

Post by gad-fly » June 14th, 2020, 4:43 pm

The antonym for Egoism is Collectivism, a close relative to populism, socialism, and communism. Egoism arises from the Ego, or self in layman term. Is egoism bad because it is a sin? First you have to define what sin is. Sin is different from crime, offence, misbehavior, indiscipline, and indiscretion, according to each's degree of severity. The annals of morality and religion are steeped in Sin and its consequential shamefulness. The most prominent is Original Sin, which we have been hobbled with since Adam and Eve. I am not sure if the unconverted is still so burdened, but I can see it very much on the believer's mind as she prays.

Sin can be ascribed to the dying or endangered species. Not long ago, it used to be a sin to be homosexual, or gay as now more respectably called. Why now? I guess because being gay is inborn, like being left-handed or black. If so, why should I feel ashamed of my original sin which is not my fault by choice or indiscretion? The same argument should apply to my ego. Since ego comes and goes with absolutely no influence from me, why should I be blamed? Granted ego comes from me alone, should I have the obligation to suppress it, and to nip it in the bud for the benefit of everybody else? But ego is what motivate me. it is what drives me despite myself. Without it, I can be ignored as if I am non-existent. Should I be subdued to hypocrisy and high-grounded morality under a totalitarian regime? May I not stand away before knowing where the crowd is? First find out, then follow, but never mind what else. Is that it?

Ego Makes The World Go Round. Let it shine.

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Greta
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Re: Why is Egoism bad? Because it is not.

Post by Greta » June 14th, 2020, 7:47 pm

gad-fly wrote:
June 14th, 2020, 4:43 pm
Granted ego comes from me alone, should I have the obligation to suppress it, and to nip it in the bud for the benefit of everybody else?
As far as I can tell, the idea of suppressing ego is to leave enough room to be considerate of others. This strikes me as a practical matter, making for a simpler, more peaceful life as long as we balance own own claims with those of others.

gad-fly
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Re: Why is Egoism bad? Because it is not.

Post by gad-fly » June 14th, 2020, 11:00 pm

Greta wrote:
June 14th, 2020, 7:47 pm
gad-fly wrote:
June 14th, 2020, 4:43 pm
Granted ego comes from me alone, should I have the obligation to suppress it, and to nip it in the bud for the benefit of everybody else?
As far as I can tell, the idea of suppressing ego is to leave enough room to be considerate of others. This strikes me as a practical matter, making for a simpler, more peaceful life as long as we balance own own claims with those of others.
Ego should be managed, not suppressed. Like everything else, you should give your ego due respect. Give in to your ego is not selfish, since you deserve that. At the same time, you should not let your ego run wild. Give a choice, I would give in more often than not.

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Greta
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Re: Why is Egoism bad? Because it is not.

Post by Greta » June 15th, 2020, 1:03 am

gad-fly wrote:
June 14th, 2020, 11:00 pm
Greta wrote:
June 14th, 2020, 7:47 pm

As far as I can tell, the idea of suppressing ego is to leave enough room to be considerate of others. This strikes me as a practical matter, making for a simpler, more peaceful life as long as we balance own own claims with those of others.
Ego should be managed, not suppressed. Like everything else, you should give your ego due respect. Give in to your ego is not selfish, since you deserve that. At the same time, you should not let your ego run wild. Give a choice, I would give in more often than not.
What is an ego, really, but a shield?

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Jing or Jang
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Re: Why is Egoism bad? Because it is not.

Post by Jing or Jang » June 15th, 2020, 1:26 am

Greta wrote:
June 14th, 2020, 7:47 pm
gad-fly wrote:
June 14th, 2020, 4:43 pm
Granted ego comes from me alone, should I have the obligation to suppress it, and to nip it in the bud for the benefit of everybody else?
As far as I can tell, the idea of suppressing ego is to leave enough room to be considerate of others. This strikes me as a practical matter, making for a simpler, more peaceful life as long as we balance own own claims with those of others.
I agree with this whole-heartedly. Now we'll see if gad-fly will assume you are a Communist.

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Jing or Jang
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Re: Why is Egoism bad? Because it is not.

Post by Jing or Jang » June 15th, 2020, 1:35 am

gad-fly wrote:
June 14th, 2020, 4:43 pm
Why is Egoism bad? Because it is not.


The antonym for Egoism is Collectivism, a close relative to populism, socialism, and communism.
It seems to me that you are trashing Socialism for the sole purpose of finding loopholes in criticism of egoism for (presumably) your own personal benefit and that you are stretching the issue only to say that your egoism is OK because it proves (or indicates) that you are not a Socialist ....which you consider a bad thing. Funny though that those of us who disdain egoism might now be driven closer to Socialism (through kinship) thanks to your message.

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Re: Why is Egoism bad? Because it is not.

Post by gad-fly » June 15th, 2020, 9:52 am

Jing or Jang wrote:
June 15th, 2020, 1:35 am
gad-fly wrote:
June 14th, 2020, 4:43 pm
Why is Egoism bad? Because it is not.


The antonym for Egoism is Collectivism, a close relative to populism, socialism, and communism.
It seems to me that you are trashing Socialism for the sole purpose of finding loopholes in criticism of egoism for (presumably) your own personal benefit and that you are stretching the issue only to say that your egoism is OK because it proves (or indicates) that you are not a Socialist ....which you consider a bad thing. Funny though that those of us who disdain egoism might now be driven closer to Socialism (through kinship) thanks to your message.
That the antonym for Egoism is Collectivism does not constitute attack on Collectivism. A close relative does not mean equal. Personally, I am not against Socialism, and so on. It is my style to refrain from exposing my preference in a intellectual forum, which should never be treated like an election or ideological struggle. I come to the forum with an open mind to welcome influence by others.

Let Egoism shines like the sun. The sun is not God. It can be blistering. (God can be blistering too, some may say.) Wear sunshade to protect yourself if necessary. Incidentally, the sun does make the world go round.

gad-fly
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Re: Why is Egoism bad? Because it is not.

Post by gad-fly » June 15th, 2020, 9:59 am

Greta wrote:
June 15th, 2020, 1:03 am
gad-fly wrote:
June 14th, 2020, 11:00 pm


Ego should be managed, not suppressed. Like everything else, you should give your ego due respect. Give in to your ego is not selfish, since you deserve that. At the same time, you should not let your ego run wild. Give a choice, I would give in more often than not.
What is an ego, really, but a shield?
Ego is more than armor plate. It is a part of you, but you cannot feel it. It is outside the ambit of this thread to discuss what constitutes Ego.

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Re: Why is Egoism bad? Because it is not.

Post by Terrapin Station » June 15th, 2020, 10:25 am

In philosophy, "egoism" most often refers to a particular ethical (and metaethical) theory. Per the Stanford Encyclopedia: "Egoism can be a descriptive or a normative position. Psychological egoism, the most famous descriptive position, claims that each person has but one ultimate aim: her own welfare. Normative forms of egoism make claims about what one ought to do, rather than describe what one does do. Ethical egoism claims I morally ought to perform some action if and only if, and because, performing that action maximizes my self-interest. Rational egoism claims that I ought to perform some action if and only if, and because, performing that action maximizes my self-interest. (Here the 'ought' is not restricted to the moral 'ought'.)"

See https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/egoism/

The problem with it as a metaethical theory, in particular, is that it's simply not true in many cases that ethical stances are motivated by self-interest.

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Re: Why is Egoism bad? Because it is not.

Post by Pattern-chaser » June 15th, 2020, 12:01 pm

Jing or Jang wrote:
June 15th, 2020, 1:35 am
Funny though that those of us who disdain egoism might now be driven closer to Socialism (through kinship) thanks to your message.
That's a cheering thought! [Sincere comment, not sarcasm.] 👍👍👍
Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"

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Re: Why is Egoism bad? Because it is not.

Post by Gertie » June 15th, 2020, 12:29 pm

The antonym for Egoism is Collectivism, a close relative to populism, socialism, and communism.
Antonyms for egoism are altruism, or selflessness. Not the political ideologies you mention, they would be antonyms for other other ideologies, such as Libertarianism, which is is the equivalent of ethical Egoism in ideological action.

So the question Is Egoism bad, can be viewed in terms of individuals and/or societies.

And as egoism is rooted in rational self-interest it's probably going to be good for the welfare of individuals following it in most instances. And you talk about sin, which is a concept generally associated with individuals.

But most problems with ethical Egoism are associated with its societal effects, where single-mindedly pursuing your own self-interest will often be at the expense of others. That's the aspect of Egoism you need to defend, if you can. And good luck with that.

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Jing or Jang
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Re: Why is Egoism bad? Because it is not.

Post by Jing or Jang » June 15th, 2020, 2:19 pm

Pattern-chaser wrote:
June 15th, 2020, 12:01 pm
Jing or Jang wrote:
June 15th, 2020, 1:35 am
Funny though that those of us who disdain egoism might now be driven closer to Socialism (through kinship) thanks to your message.
That's a cheering thought! [Sincere comment, not sarcasm.] 👍👍👍
I agree. :)

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Jing or Jang
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Re: Why is Egoism bad? Because it is not.

Post by Jing or Jang » June 15th, 2020, 2:23 pm

gad-fly wrote:
June 15th, 2020, 9:52 am
Jing or Jang wrote:
June 15th, 2020, 1:35 am

It seems to me that you are trashing Socialism for the sole purpose of finding loopholes in criticism of egoism for (presumably) your own personal benefit and that you are stretching the issue only to say that your egoism is OK because it proves (or indicates) that you are not a Socialist ....which you consider a bad thing. Funny though that those of us who disdain egoism might now be driven closer to Socialism (through kinship) thanks to your message.
That the antonym for Egoism is Collectivism does not constitute attack on Collectivism. A close relative does not mean equal. Personally, I am not against Socialism, and so on. It is my style to refrain from exposing my preference in a intellectual forum, which should never be treated like an election or ideological struggle. I come to the forum with an open mind to welcome influence by others.
That wasn't obvious from your post. Thank you for clarifying it.

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Re: Why is Egoism bad? Because it is not.

Post by Greta » June 15th, 2020, 4:39 pm

gad-fly wrote:
June 15th, 2020, 9:59 am
Greta wrote:
June 15th, 2020, 1:03 am

What is an ego, really, but a shield?
Ego is more than armor plate. It is a part of you, but you cannot feel it. It is outside the ambit of this thread to discuss what constitutes Ego.
I will have to simply disagree without much explanation. Ego is purely a shield. It is mental armour that is required by anyone with a nervous system. No nervous system, no ego - no need.

Thus, if we have a shield, we can keep it in readiness or we can proactively jam it in others' faces before they have any chance to attack. Thus, egoism as such is "bad", a hypervigilant defensiveness that impinges on others.

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Re: Why is Egoism bad? Because it is not.

Post by gad-fly » June 15th, 2020, 4:57 pm

Jing or Jang wrote:
June 15th, 2020, 2:23 pm

That wasn't obvious from your post. Thank you for clarifying it.
I have come to realize that it would be self-defeating to present a thread as an essay in this forum. I would often stop reading here when there are more than 4 paragraphs. Like a dialogue, a break must be given to myself, and an opening must be allowed for others to join in. Fine, isn't it, with supplementary to follow?

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