Paid enforcers only have literal blood on their hands.

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LuckyR
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Re: Paid enforcers only have literal blood on their hands.

Post by LuckyR »

Scott wrote: April 16th, 2021, 1:07 pm
LuckyR wrote: April 16th, 2021, 1:57 am
Scott wrote: April 15th, 2021, 7:02 pm
Scott wrote: LuckyR, I would love to know your answers to those questions.
LuckyR wrote: April 15th, 2021, 6:25 pm I, as most, would hold the mob boss primarily responsible. This would include the third case where the business owner died against his orders since the mob boss created the environment where the enforcer put the business owner at risk of harm. The fact that the harm was of an unintended variety, the prudent mob boss should anticipate that such an outcome was possible.
I agree. :)

While the paid enforcers might have the literal blood on their hands, the mob boss is primarily responsible for the violence and killings, and in that way the mob boss is the one who has the real (albeit figurative) blood on his hands.

For the same reason, I think the primary responsibility for the slavery she funds voluntarily with her money arguably goes to the hypothetical soccer mom with the shiny glistening blood diamond ring on her hand for using that hand to voluntary paying for soccer shoes she knows were made by child slaves. Certainly, the mob boss as entitle to a nice fancy but expensive suit as anyone is to soccer shoes and a diamond ring.

You are wise to bring up the role of prudence, and thus by extension due diligence. I think we can agree that willful ignorance is no excuse for the wanton disregard of the effects of one's actions including those done vicariously by others for money.
I think you are forgetting the responsibility of those you are trying to decide are responsible. In the mob boss case, the boss snaps his fingers and orders the enforcers to stop, and the problem evaporates.

In the soccer mom example, the subcontractor snaps his fingers and the slave labor is freed. The soccer mom does not have that power. Her response power is incredibly limited, thus so is her responsibility.
That's a good point, and I don't necessarily disagree. Though, the finger snapping is not simple in practice, in that for instance a weak mob boss might be killed and replaced by an even blood-thirsty 2nd in command. The mob boss might considers himself a benevolent dictator of sorts. If you have ever seen the movie 300, there are some scenes I really love where the invading emperor Xerxes keeps calling himself a "kind god". In one scene Xerxes says to a spartan traitor, "You will find I am kind. Unlike the cruel Leonidas, who demanded that you stand, I require only that you kneel."

To your wise point, LuckyR, we might consider a $10,000 blood diamond made by slaves is a thousand times more blood-ridden than a $10 pair of shoes made by child slaves, namely in terms of the amount of the market that would be removed if one chose not to participate. Thus, the one buying the $10k blood diamond is in a sense 1,000 times more responsible for that blood than the one buying the $10 shoes. The mob boss may be the primarily purchasers of hits in the hit-selling market, thereby single-handedly generated that market, or not.

A more specific and thus realistic example is the anonymous online viewers who literally paid Stas Reeflay to lock his pregnant wife outside in the cold. She died.

A cliché example would be a single guard working a Nazi concentration camp, just doing his job. If he chose to quit, or chose to never sign up for the SS in the first place, it's not like that would stop the holocaust.

Are we responsible for what we intentionally do or what we happen to allegedly cause? For those who answer in the latter, I'd point to my topic, The only true cause of death is birth, as a potential reductio ad absurdum.

Perhaps it doesn't matter that much if the person would die anyway, if the holocaust would happen anyway, if Stas Reeflay would eventually kill his wife anyway. Perhaps what matters much more is if one intentionally knowningly chooses to help make it happen when they easily could snap their fingers and withdraw their active financial support. What do you think?
I am not well versed in the blood diamond situation. What would happen to the miners if the blood diamond trade evaporatec tomorrow?

The single Nazi guard situation is a bit easier. The guard is not responsible for the Holocaust, merely his small part in it.

As to the Russian you tuber, I have had some trouble finding a reliable mainstream source of information on his case.
"As usual... it depends."
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Scott
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Re: Paid enforcers only have literal blood on their hands.

Post by Scott »

Sy Borg wrote: April 17th, 2021, 12:07 am The chain of cause and effect goes for as long as one thinks it matters. What of the mob boss's parents? Or grandparents? What was the family culture and how exceptional was the family in the urban environment in which they came up? Or maybe the mob boss had a mentor / corrupter?

So I blame life itself (but would lock up the mob boss and the killers for the sake of social safety). The fact is that we all have to kill and/or exploit to survive and thrive. That's the overarching dynamic of life. At this stage.
Spiritually and more broadly speaking, I totally agree. Arguably, even the concept of causality doesn't really make sense or exist in the grand scheme of the cosmos (especially in the sense that time doesn't exist).

Nonetheless, more practically and as a matter of the political philosophy, I think an important factor to consider is the mens rea involved in a behavior and/or choice. In other words, what the person believed their options to be, and what they intended to choose to do based on those option while in consideration of those options, which thus represents what they wanted to happen.

LuckyR wrote: April 17th, 2021, 1:55 am As to the Russian you tuber, I have had some trouble finding a reliable mainstream source of information on his case.
Here are three articles about it:

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/13368928/ ... ony-abuse/

https://www.businessinsider.co.za/russi ... am-2020-12

https://www.news.com.au/technology/onli ... 34be0fe8fc
My entire political philosophy summed up in one tweet.

"The mind is a wonderful servant but a terrible master."

I believe spiritual freedom (a.k.a. self-discipline) manifests as bravery, confidence, grace, honesty, love, and inner peace.
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Sy Borg
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Re: Paid enforcers only have literal blood on their hands.

Post by Sy Borg »

Scott wrote: April 17th, 2021, 6:40 pm
Sy Borg wrote: April 17th, 2021, 12:07 am The chain of cause and effect goes for as long as one thinks it matters. What of the mob boss's parents? Or grandparents? What was the family culture and how exceptional was the family in the urban environment in which they came up? Or maybe the mob boss had a mentor / corrupter?

So I blame life itself (but would lock up the mob boss and the killers for the sake of social safety). The fact is that we all have to kill and/or exploit to survive and thrive. That's the overarching dynamic of life. At this stage.
Spiritually and more broadly speaking, I totally agree. Arguably, even the concept of causality doesn't really make sense or exist in the grand scheme of the cosmos (especially in the sense that time doesn't exist).

Nonetheless, more practically and as a matter of the political philosophy, I think an important factor to consider is the mens rea involved in a behavior and/or choice. In other words, what the person believed their options to be, and what they intended to choose to do based on those option while in consideration of those options, which thus represents what they wanted to happen.
That's the law, which tends to be logical (at least in areas where vested interests and lobbyists aren't skewing laws in their favour).

It's ultimately a matter of protecting people and infrastructure. There are a range of dangers that societies must navigate - germs, car accidents, floods, fires, storms, landslides, venomous animals and, of course, dangerous humans.
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Robert66
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Re: Paid enforcers only have literal blood on their hands.

Post by Robert66 »

Scott wrote: April 15th, 2021, 7:02 pm
Robert66 wrote: April 15th, 2021, 4:36 pm Now imagine the soccer Mom at home...
I created the hypothetical in the OP and asked my questions first, so I politely request that you answer the questions in the OP first. Then if you want to me consider a new hypothetical after that I'd be happy to, or alternatively you can make a whole new topic in the forums for your different hypothetical.
My new hypothetical can be found here:
https://onlinephilosophyclub.com/forums ... =5&t=17194
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Scott
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Re: Paid enforcers only have literal blood on their hands.

Post by Scott »

Robert66 wrote: April 19th, 2021, 5:48 pm
Scott wrote: April 15th, 2021, 7:02 pm
Robert66 wrote: April 15th, 2021, 4:36 pm Now imagine the soccer Mom at home...
I created the hypothetical in the OP and asked my questions first, so I politely request that you answer the questions in the OP first. Then if you want to me consider a new hypothetical after that I'd be happy to, or alternatively you can make a whole new topic in the forums for your different hypothetical.
My new hypothetical can be found here:
https://onlinephilosophyclub.com/forums ... =5&t=17194
Cool. If and when you answer my questions in the OP of this topic, I'll answer your questions in the OP of that topic. :)
My entire political philosophy summed up in one tweet.

"The mind is a wonderful servant but a terrible master."

I believe spiritual freedom (a.k.a. self-discipline) manifests as bravery, confidence, grace, honesty, love, and inner peace.
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