Educating common people on professional subjects, is it helpful or is it an asking for a disaster?

Use this forum to discuss the October 2021 Philosophy Book of the Month, The Prepper's Medical Handbook by William W. Forgey
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Educating common people on professional subjects, is it helpful or is it an asking for a disaster?

Post by Sushan »

This topic is about the October 2021 Philosophy Book of the Month, The Prepper's Medical Handbook by William W Forgey


Nowadays people tend to google their symptoms and try to diagnose and treat their own selves. But in most occasions this has ended up with disasters and people getting unnecessarily panicked.

Here via this book William W Forgey has tried to educate common people on emergency medical management in a quite deep level. He has tried to make a person able to provide medical care in an emergency situation without any help from the professionals.

Though I agree that having medical knowledge can be useful, this can worsen the scenario by a non-profesional trying to play the hero. What do you think?

A simple example:
In case of possible neck injury, the airway can be opened by lifting the jaw without moving the neck.
(Location 768 - Kindle version)

This is the only mentioning about the important, yet difficult, and has to be practiced and precised, jaw-thrust-maneuver. Trying to apply this with no or inadequate practice will clearly put the victim in more danger.
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Re: Educating common people on professional subjects, is it helpful or is it an asking for a disaster?

Post by JackDaydream »

@Sushan

I think that it is a difficult question because in some ways a little knowledge can be applied wrongly but, on the other hand, ignorance can be very dangerous.

It is hard to know how helpful the example in the book about airway obstruction would be and it is likely that some may be able to relate to the words in the book and others may not. I do come from a background in mental healthnursing care, so I have done training in basis life support.. I found it a difficult area to learn, especially at the beginning of my training. Most of the teaching was hands on practical demonstration, which is essential, but I am more of a reader, so I may have found written descriptions helpful rather than diagrams. Generally, think that many health care professionals believe that it is best if people have some basic awareness of basic life support rather than none, so it may be that the book is useful in that way.

Also, many people do turn to doctors for help with physical health problems and it may be better if they are able to have some basic medical knowledge. What I find is that if I go to a doctor, I am only given a very short amount of time and attention. So, I find it helpful to read up on any physical health care problems which I may have because I am able to do it in more depth than the doctor, who has a great case load of patients. Of course, I do have some background knowledge, meaning that I am able to do this more than a lot of people. The problem may be that education people are given when growing up does not incorporate enough about medical matters. There may be a danger of people with a lack of basic knowledge reading a book on medical matters and trying to diagnose and treat themselves and it going haywire, but still, if the book is read carefully it could provide a basis for people to understand how to respond to the needs of themselves and other people in more of an informed and sensitive way.
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Re: Educating common people on professional subjects, is it helpful or is it an asking for a disaster?

Post by LuckyR »

There is nothing wrong with disseminating First Aid information. With the caveat that it is to be used First, that is in the field in the absence of access to medical professionals. Thus it is not a substitute for professional medical care.
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Re: Educating common people on professional subjects, is it helpful or is it an asking for a disaster?

Post by Sushan »

JackDaydream wrote: October 1st, 2021, 11:56 am @Sushan

I think that it is a difficult question because in some ways a little knowledge can be applied wrongly but, on the other hand, ignorance can be very dangerous.

It is hard to know how helpful the example in the book about airway obstruction would be and it is likely that some may be able to relate to the words in the book and others may not. I do come from a background in mental healthnursing care, so I have done training in basis life support.. I found it a difficult area to learn, especially at the beginning of my training. Most of the teaching was hands on practical demonstration, which is essential, but I am more of a reader, so I may have found written descriptions helpful rather than diagrams. Generally, think that many health care professionals believe that it is best if people have some basic awareness of basic life support rather than none, so it may be that the book is useful in that way.

Also, many people do turn to doctors for help with physical health problems and it may be better if they are able to have some basic medical knowledge. What I find is that if I go to a doctor, I am only given a very short amount of time and attention. So, I find it helpful to read up on any physical health care problems which I may have because I am able to do it in more depth than the doctor, who has a great case load of patients. Of course, I do have some background knowledge, meaning that I am able to do this more than a lot of people. The problem may be that education people are given when growing up does not incorporate enough about medical matters. There may be a danger of people with a lack of basic knowledge reading a book on medical matters and trying to diagnose and treat themselves and it going haywire, but still, if the book is read carefully it could provide a basis for people to understand how to respond to the needs of themselves and other people in more of an informed and sensitive way.
I am not totally against educating general public on medical subjects. It can be used for saving lives. But the application will depend on the person. Some might use this knowledge for basic life support and initial first aid, but some might go beyond that and think of him/herself as a doctor, and that will be a real problem and a threat to the patient's life.

Reading is a good thing, and yes, we read a lot in the med school. But without the practical component I do not think the reading will have much impact on the essential clinical skills. And that is why always there are practical components in the medical examinations.
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Re: Educating common people on professional subjects, is it helpful or is it an asking for a disaster?

Post by Sushan »

LuckyR wrote: October 2nd, 2021, 1:27 am There is nothing wrong with disseminating First Aid information. With the caveat that it is to be used First, that is in the field in the absence of access to medical professionals. Thus it is not a substitute for professional medical care.
I agree. First aid has to be given on the ground and it is important to educate everyone about first aid. But my point is that this book is not merely for first aid purposes. The author clearly mentions that he wants a prepper to be prepared to treat a patient even without a doctor or any other support. Being ready for anything is okay. But I am not certain whether it is good for an ordinary person to try what doctors and other clinically trained staff perform in an highly equipped environment, without any such things. It might very well put the patient in danger, and this book may be leading the preppers in that direction.
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Re: Educating common people on professional subjects, is it helpful or is it an asking for a disaster?

Post by LuckyR »

Sushan wrote: October 10th, 2021, 8:56 pm
LuckyR wrote: October 2nd, 2021, 1:27 am There is nothing wrong with disseminating First Aid information. With the caveat that it is to be used First, that is in the field in the absence of access to medical professionals. Thus it is not a substitute for professional medical care.
I agree. First aid has to be given on the ground and it is important to educate everyone about first aid. But my point is that this book is not merely for first aid purposes. The author clearly mentions that he wants a prepper to be prepared to treat a patient even without a doctor or any other support. Being ready for anything is okay. But I am not certain whether it is good for an ordinary person to try what doctors and other clinically trained staff perform in an highly equipped environment, without any such things. It might very well put the patient in danger, and this book may be leading the preppers in that direction.
Our two comments are compatible.
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Re: Educating common people on professional subjects, is it helpful or is it an asking for a disaster?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

JackDaydream wrote: October 1st, 2021, 11:56 am I think that it is a difficult question because in some ways a little knowledge can be applied wrongly but, on the other hand, ignorance can be very dangerous.
I think you've homed in on the core issue here. It's all about the tension between "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing" and "ignorance is a dangerous thing". And it's a difficult issue to resolve.

There are trivial details that always come up, like the idea that experts seek to keep their expertise to themselves, to retain the value of their own skills, which anyone might/could otherwise learn. Perhaps this is sometimes the case, but expertise is usually just that: expert knowledge and understanding of some subject that takes time, ability and effort to master.

I know what a tracheotomy is, and very roughly when it might be helpful. But if I tried to save you by doing one, you would likely die from my well-intentioned incompetence. In this case, "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing". In another case, it might come out the other way.
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Re: Educating common people on professional subjects, is it helpful or is it an asking for a disaster?

Post by Sushan »

Pattern-chaser wrote: October 17th, 2021, 9:21 am
JackDaydream wrote: October 1st, 2021, 11:56 am I think that it is a difficult question because in some ways a little knowledge can be applied wrongly but, on the other hand, ignorance can be very dangerous.
I think you've homed in on the core issue here. It's all about the tension between "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing" and "ignorance is a dangerous thing". And it's a difficult issue to resolve.

There are trivial details that always come up, like the idea that experts seek to keep their expertise to themselves, to retain the value of their own skills, which anyone might/could otherwise learn. Perhaps this is sometimes the case, but expertise is usually just that: expert knowledge and understanding of some subject that takes time, ability and effort to master.

I know what a tracheotomy is, and very roughly when it might be helpful. But if I tried to save you by doing one, you would likely die from my well-intentioned incompetence. In this case, "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing". In another case, it might come out the other way.
Knowledge and skills are two things. One can gain knowledge from books and skills from training. With the technological advancement I do not think one can hide any professional skill these days. Shaolin monks used to do so, but today even their abilities are to be found on youtube. But by seeing such a video will not make anyone a Shaolin monk. The same thing is applied for any profession. But that does not hinder anyone from doing any life saving maneuver. What the performer should be aware of are the limit of his skills and not to be over confident and ask for help whenever necessary. And one should be able to give up when it is the best thing to be done.
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Re: Educating common people on professional subjects, is it helpful or is it an asking for a disaster?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Pattern-chaser wrote: October 17th, 2021, 9:21 am
JackDaydream wrote: October 1st, 2021, 11:56 am I think that it is a difficult question because in some ways a little knowledge can be applied wrongly but, on the other hand, ignorance can be very dangerous.
I think you've homed in on the core issue here. It's all about the tension between "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing" and "ignorance is a dangerous thing". And it's a difficult issue to resolve.

There are trivial details that always come up, like the idea that experts seek to keep their expertise to themselves, to retain the value of their own skills, which anyone might/could otherwise learn. Perhaps this is sometimes the case, but expertise is usually just that: expert knowledge and understanding of some subject that takes time, ability and effort to master.

I know what a tracheotomy is, and very roughly when it might be helpful. But if I tried to save you by doing one, you would likely die from my well-intentioned incompetence. In this case, "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing". In another case, it might come out the other way.
Sushan wrote: October 19th, 2021, 5:19 am Knowledge and skills are two things. One can gain knowledge from books and skills from training. With the technological advancement I do not think one can hide any professional skill these days. Shaolin monks used to do so, but today even their abilities are to be found on youtube. But by seeing such a video will not make anyone a Shaolin monk. The same thing is applied for any profession. But that does not hinder anyone from doing any life saving maneuver.
It does when their ignorance brings with it a significant risk to the life or health of the patient! If we lack knowledge or skill, our well-meant interference could cause harm or death. There is no get-around, or 'quick fix', for expertise.


Sushan wrote: October 19th, 2021, 5:19 am What the performer should be aware of are the limit of his skills and not to be over confident and ask for help whenever necessary. And one should be able to give up when it is the best thing to be done.
Not only to give up, but not to act in the first place. Untrained and unskilled people cannot provide an expert service. There really is no way round this simple fact.

Every five to ten years, there is yet another initiative to de-skill' computer program design, so that everyone can give it a go. They don't work, for the obvious reasons. Program design is a skill that takes many years to acquire. I know because I have done it. I am not trying to keep my knowledge and skills from the general populace. Anyone with the necessary ability can learn ... but it will take them years, not hours. There really, truly, and honestly are no shortcuts.
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Re: Educating common people on professional subjects, is it helpful or is it an asking for a disaster?

Post by Sushan »

Pattern-chaser wrote: October 19th, 2021, 9:53 am
Pattern-chaser wrote: October 17th, 2021, 9:21 am
JackDaydream wrote: October 1st, 2021, 11:56 am I think that it is a difficult question because in some ways a little knowledge can be applied wrongly but, on the other hand, ignorance can be very dangerous.
I think you've homed in on the core issue here. It's all about the tension between "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing" and "ignorance is a dangerous thing". And it's a difficult issue to resolve.

There are trivial details that always come up, like the idea that experts seek to keep their expertise to themselves, to retain the value of their own skills, which anyone might/could otherwise learn. Perhaps this is sometimes the case, but expertise is usually just that: expert knowledge and understanding of some subject that takes time, ability and effort to master.

I know what a tracheotomy is, and very roughly when it might be helpful. But if I tried to save you by doing one, you would likely die from my well-intentioned incompetence. In this case, "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing". In another case, it might come out the other way.
Sushan wrote: October 19th, 2021, 5:19 am Knowledge and skills are two things. One can gain knowledge from books and skills from training. With the technological advancement I do not think one can hide any professional skill these days. Shaolin monks used to do so, but today even their abilities are to be found on youtube. But by seeing such a video will not make anyone a Shaolin monk. The same thing is applied for any profession. But that does not hinder anyone from doing any life saving maneuver.
It does when their ignorance brings with it a significant risk to the life or health of the patient! If we lack knowledge or skill, our well-meant interference could cause harm or death. There is no get-around, or 'quick fix', for expertise.


Sushan wrote: October 19th, 2021, 5:19 am What the performer should be aware of are the limit of his skills and not to be over confident and ask for help whenever necessary. And one should be able to give up when it is the best thing to be done.
Not only to give up, but not to act in the first place. Untrained and unskilled people cannot provide an expert service. There really is no way round this simple fact.

Every five to ten years, there is yet another initiative to de-skill' computer program design, so that everyone can give it a go. They don't work, for the obvious reasons. Program design is a skill that takes many years to acquire. I know because I have done it. I am not trying to keep my knowledge and skills from the general populace. Anyone with the necessary ability can learn ... but it will take them years, not hours. There really, truly, and honestly are no shortcuts.
I agree. There are no short cuts for becoming an expert in any field. And each field has its different ways of making experts. One can become a computer programmer by self-learning, self-practising, and even end up as a programmer who sell his work. If any employer is willing that programmer can be hired though he/she does not have a certificate from a university.

But this is not similar to the field of medicine. Anyone can acquire the knowledge by reading and skills by practising. But to apply it on humans one should get qualified by an accepted university.

Having knowledge and skills is not the only thing that has to be considered when it comes to application.
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Re: Educating common people on professional subjects, is it helpful or is it an asking for a disaster?

Post by Pattern-chaser »

Sushan wrote: October 19th, 2021, 11:10 am I agree. There are no short cuts for becoming an expert in any field. And each field has its different ways of making experts. One can become a computer programmer by self-learning, self-practising, and even end up as a programmer who sell his work.
Programmers who can develop genuine expertise by self-learning alone are few and far between. But that's 'by the by'.


Sushan wrote: October 19th, 2021, 11:10 am But this is not similar to the field of medicine. Anyone can acquire the knowledge by reading and skills by practising.
Not so. It takes about 7 years to qualify academically as a doctor, and some years more to develop genuine expertise. Your suggestions frighten me, to be honest. One cannot learn to be a healer by reading and self-learning.
Sushan wrote: October 19th, 2021, 11:10 am But to apply it on humans one should get qualified by an accepted university.
Academic qualifications are the start of the path toward expertise, not the end, IMO.



But I will not continue "yes it is", "no, it isn't" with you on this subject; I have made my point, which was my aim, now satisfied.
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Re: Educating common people on professional subjects, is it helpful or is it an asking for a disaster?

Post by LuckyR »

Pattern-chaser wrote: October 19th, 2021, 1:06 pm
Sushan wrote: October 19th, 2021, 11:10 am I agree. There are no short cuts for becoming an expert in any field. And each field has its different ways of making experts. One can become a computer programmer by self-learning, self-practising, and even end up as a programmer who sell his work.
Programmers who can develop genuine expertise by self-learning alone are few and far between. But that's 'by the by'.


Sushan wrote: October 19th, 2021, 11:10 am But this is not similar to the field of medicine. Anyone can acquire the knowledge by reading and skills by practising.
Not so. It takes about 7 years to qualify academically as a doctor, and some years more to develop genuine expertise. Your suggestions frighten me, to be honest. One cannot learn to be a healer by reading and self-learning.
Sushan wrote: October 19th, 2021, 11:10 am But to apply it on humans one should get qualified by an accepted university.
Academic qualifications are the start of the path toward expertise, not the end, IMO.



But I will not continue "yes it is", "no, it isn't" with you on this subject; I have made my point, which was my aim, now satisfied.
There are fields that have formal paths to acquire expertise and concomitant certification. Other fields don't. If someone wants to become an expert in an area that has such a formal requirement, any other path (self learning, reading etc) is by definition substandard.
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Re: Educating common people on professional subjects, is it helpful or is it an asking for a disaster?

Post by Sushan »

Pattern-chaser wrote: October 19th, 2021, 1:06 pm
Sushan wrote: October 19th, 2021, 11:10 am I agree. There are no short cuts for becoming an expert in any field. And each field has its different ways of making experts. One can become a computer programmer by self-learning, self-practising, and even end up as a programmer who sell his work.
Programmers who can develop genuine expertise by self-learning alone are few and far between. But that's 'by the by'.


Sushan wrote: October 19th, 2021, 11:10 am But this is not similar to the field of medicine. Anyone can acquire the knowledge by reading and skills by practising.
Not so. It takes about 7 years to qualify academically as a doctor, and some years more to develop genuine expertise. Your suggestions frighten me, to be honest. One cannot learn to be a healer by reading and self-learning.
Sushan wrote: October 19th, 2021, 11:10 am But to apply it on humans one should get qualified by an accepted university.
Academic qualifications are the start of the path toward expertise, not the end, IMO.



But I will not continue "yes it is", "no, it isn't" with you on this subject; I have made my point, which was my aim, now satisfied.
No. I did not tell self learning will make one a healer. If so there will not be any medical boards to judge the qualifications of the clinicians. My point was there are fields that one can learn on their own and even build a career on that, while there are other fields which are mandatory to be subjected to validation by authorities.

Yes, academic qualifications is not the end for any field. What a professional gains from experience cannot be given through any academic qualification.
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Re: Educating common people on professional subjects, is it helpful or is it an asking for a disaster?

Post by Sushan »

LuckyR wrote: October 19th, 2021, 7:03 pm
Pattern-chaser wrote: October 19th, 2021, 1:06 pm
Sushan wrote: October 19th, 2021, 11:10 am I agree. There are no short cuts for becoming an expert in any field. And each field has its different ways of making experts. One can become a computer programmer by self-learning, self-practising, and even end up as a programmer who sell his work.
Programmers who can develop genuine expertise by self-learning alone are few and far between. But that's 'by the by'.


Sushan wrote: October 19th, 2021, 11:10 am But this is not similar to the field of medicine. Anyone can acquire the knowledge by reading and skills by practising.
Not so. It takes about 7 years to qualify academically as a doctor, and some years more to develop genuine expertise. Your suggestions frighten me, to be honest. One cannot learn to be a healer by reading and self-learning.
Sushan wrote: October 19th, 2021, 11:10 am But to apply it on humans one should get qualified by an accepted university.
Academic qualifications are the start of the path toward expertise, not the end, IMO.



But I will not continue "yes it is", "no, it isn't" with you on this subject; I have made my point, which was my aim, now satisfied.
There are fields that have formal paths to acquire expertise and concomitant certification. Other fields don't. If someone wants to become an expert in an area that has such a formal requirement, any other path (self learning, reading etc) is by definition substandard.
Exactly my point. Everyone knows paracetamol can be given for fever. But that does not give everyone the authority to legally prescribe that.

On the other hand if you know android programming you can make apps and sell them in Play store. No one will ask for any educational qualifications or any authority.

It depends on the subject. But in any field the expertise is not gained in mere days. So every expert should get the due respect.
“There is only one thing a philosopher can be relied upon to do, and that is to contradict other philosophers”

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Re: Educating common people on professional subjects, is it helpful or is it an asking for a disaster?

Post by Belindi »

Up to date First Aid can and should be taught to every man, woman, and child.

Clinical prescribing can and should be restricted to accredited experts, according to the medication's intended and side effects including addiction.

What doctors should tell patients may be judged according to how a competent patient answers the question(asked in a polite, peaceful, and sympathetic manner) "What would you like to know?"
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