Philosophy Discussion Forums | A Humans-Only Philosophy Club

[Eckhart Aurelius Hughes]

I doubt barely anyone would propose legalizing sex slavery. I definitely do not.

Nonetheless, I do not want the government to forcefully restrain people from activities that are freely chosen but may be considered self-abusive and morally degrading. That's one reason I support the legalization of prostitution (as well as the legalization of other freely chosen activities such as doing drugs, overeating, etc.).

Regardless, I also support the legalization of prostitution for women's sake. Criminalizing prostitution does not get rid of it; it just pushes it underground. When prostitution is legalized, legitimate businesses legally provide the supply of paid sex to customers using employees who voluntarily applied for the job and who are free to quit. When prostitution is criminalized, the paid sex market is given to violent criminals; "johns" must go to criminal pimps to buy sex, and the criminal pimps often will use violence to enslave women as prostitutes. I firmly believe legalizing prostitution would drastically improve the conditions of prostitutes and would drastically decrease the amount of sex slavery.

What do you think? Do you think legalizing prostitution would make the conditions better for prostitutes? Do you think legalizing prostitution would undermine the underground sex slavery market?

[anarchyisbliss]

The main reason it is illegal is because moralists in Washington think it is to immoral yet they legalize strip clubs. pornography, and sex shops.

[Eckhart Aurelius Hughes]

I just made a blog post that further explains the benefits of legalizing prostitution. It also points out that prostitution prohibition drastically increases the spread of AIDS.

The main reason it is illegal is because moralists in Washington think it is to immoral yet they legalize strip clubs. pornography, and sex shops.

I would bet the main reason that consensual crimes like prostitution remain illegal is because of the influence of the corporations and unions that financially benefit from prohibition. As I explained in my article, The Philosophy of Government Spending, since the government has the power to spend trillions of taxpayers' dollars a year, that means special interests have trillions of dollars worth of incentive to get that money given to them. What's waste to taxpayers is profit to the special interests who receive the money. From the money alone, I can bet the private-owned prison industry, the police unions, the manufacturers of police equipment, the staff at the flooded courts and so forth all support prohibition of prostitution as well as other consensual crimes like possessing marijuana.

[Nick_A]

What is the argument against prostitution and why should a free society be against it? A person must consider this first before either being for or against legalized prostitution.

The only time the objection to prostitution has merit for a society IMO is when the society values freedom. The nuclear family is the basis of a free society. Without it, obligations become assumed by the state rather then agreed upon within a family structure.

The nuclear family when balanced harmonizes the yin yang influences in the context of higher spiritual influences making for a healthier collective psych within the family which further sustains the inner quality necessary to sustain a free society.

Part of this relationship is the sexual bond between husband and wife which not only theoretically furthers them but minimizes conflict within the community.

Fo0r a free society to suatain itself, I maintain that the nuclear family be celebrated as a necessary atom of a free society. Prostitution serves to threaten this quality so is not glorified but rather exists in a deglorified capacity.

Now we have entered the stage where a free society is rapidly bcoming a thing of the past so naturally celebration of the nuclear family is considered outdated. So as society devolves towards a slave state the glorified sexuality of prostitution is also glorified as an unconscious means for a quicker devolution.

So the bottom line is that if we no longer value a free society or value the nuclear family that helps sustain it, there is nothing to lose by prostitution since it has already been lost.

Under these circumstances, it is better to leagalize prostitution and go out with a bang so to speak.

[whitetrshsoldier]

The only time the objection to prostitution has merit for a society IMO is when the society values freedom. The nuclear family is the basis of a free society. Without it, obligations become assumed by the state rather then agreed upon within a family structure.

So you don't consider anybody capable of being independent of the State and of their family? I think you're severely underestimating things when you say this, and even more greatly over-reaching when you say that prostitution destroys ALL families.

The nuclear family when balanced harmonizes the yin yang influences in the context of higher spiritual influences making for a healthier collective psych within the family which further sustains the inner quality necessary to sustain a free society.

What? So a prostitute pleasuring a perfectly independent, single man in a consensual manner distant from the protected suburbs of your "nuclear family" is more threatening to freedom than a collective elite dictating what an individual can and cannot do in the privacy of his own home/motel room with another consenting adult?

Which situation really sustains individual "freedom" more?

[Juice]

You've got to be kidding me! Just what I want for my daughter or anyone else's daughter is for them to seek and enter into the legal career of prostitution. Can we at least try to pretend that we expect more from women than them just being the object of sex and poor self image. Let's try to pretend that there aren't people out there who have proclivities which tell them that it's alright to abuse children, women or themselves.

I'm sure there will be those willing to endorse any manner deprecation for the sake of individual freedom and libertarianism but let's at least try to pretend that there should be a limit to the depths some will sink to see that some personal choices are destructive.

Please show the first mother or father that would endorse their child's aspirations to abuse their bodies in prostitution, trade for money and I'll show you a pimp, a child abuser, molester and a subhuman cretin.

[whitetrshsoldier]

Alright Juice, so here's where you can show me as a "cretin".

If my kid decides to do something I don't agree with, like pursue their "natural affinity towards homosexuality", hypersexuality [promiscuity], pursued a pornographic career [should we outlaw that, too?], or some other "depraved act", I would not prefer that their choice was outlawed.

Just because I don't like it, doesn't mean it is wrong. Haven't you ever watched a porno? What makes Porn different from prostitution? They get paid to have sex with random men, as do the men get paid to have sex with random women. The difference is it's video-taped, which somehow makes it legal.

So tell me honestly you believe that all forms of pornography should be banned because all it does is break apart families and destroy people's minds, and, well honestly, I'll be very disappointed.

[Nick_A]

Whitetrshsoldier

So you don't consider anybody capable of being independent of the State and of their family? I think you're severely underestimating things when you say this, and even more greatly over-reaching when you say that prostitution destroys ALL families.

You've misunderstood. From a sociological perspective society will be the sum of various influences. I am suggesting that the continuance of a free society requires a sufficient quality of influence that comes from the nuclear family. It truly is the atom of a free society.

The nuclear family accepts obligations to each other as well as to society by bringing a new generation into the society capable of a quality of self respect necessary to adopt the obligations necessary for a free society.

A free society then has values that reflect the importance of the nuclear family one of which is the value of the bond between husband and wife. They both give influences to their offspring as well as to each other that if healthy, willingly adopt the obligations that assure our rights. One of these values is to value preserving the sex of the nuclear family over that of the sex of prostitution.

What? So a prostitute pleasuring a perfectly independent, single man in a consensual manner distant from the protected suburbs of your "nuclear family" is more threatening to freedom than a collective elite dictating what an individual can and cannot do in the privacy of his own home/motel room with another consenting adult?

Guys have been going into bars for years and will continue to do so for a little action even if he pays for it. The question is if we celebrate it.

If we legalize prostitution then we are celebrating sex without discretion.

We have lost the understanding of sex to the degree that we no longer appreciate essential differences between men and women and think them the same.

For example, it was always known that while it is natural for the male to impregnate whatever it finds desirable in body, it is the female to distinguish inner quality. A woman of a certain inner quality will not wish to breed with a man of lesser quality. The women that would breed with anything for money regardless of inner quality were called prostitutes. They were prostituting their potential to discriminate quality in exchange for money.

Women unable to discriminate quality but were just acting normally had nothing to prostitute other then societal morality. There would be a primary attraction to the wallet.

The incentive to glorify prostitution serves to devalue the psych of a woman capable of developing her inner discrimination. I doubt if even one out of a hundred young women have ever become aware of her potential importance of bringing quality into her society through her sexual discrimination. Yet producing quality serves not only to better the individual but serves also as a qualitative influence in society that can allow it to accept the obligations allowing it to remain free.

There's nothing essentially wrong with spending money on some good rump, The point is that society as well as individuals are always changing. So the question becomes how to value prostitution? Do we celebrate it by legalizing it or do we celebrate the unique nature of the nuclear family and the sacrifices it makes in order to preserve the atoms of a free society at the expense of public brothels the celebration of which devalue the nuclear family. I believe it is more advantageous to the psych of a free society to sacrifice the celebration of prostitution by legalizing it nationwide leaving it to the old fashioned way which is private agreements between men and women

[Juice]

Sorry WTS but I am going to have to disappoint. Being a man of experience, not only my own but also through conversations with men who have similarly availed themselves of various aspects of life I can honestly say with no trepidation that had I known I would meet my wife I would have waited for her. Sure one can say that I am lucky, but the men who comprise my circle of friends and acquaintances value family above anything else and live their lives IAW that priority, children love mothers but learn from fathers.

We have to respect, defend and honor woman. That is how we honor ourselves as men. I watch Gladiator at least once a week since one of the underlying values it expresses is that point of view. I have raised my son with that perspective and I am grateful that he is becoming a better man than I am since I talk to him about intimacy, love and respect, and how adopting those precepts will make him a better man.

I don't know if I can reconcile my feelings towards pornography with freedom of speech satisfactorily so I will only say that I believe that we should look at women and approach our dealings with them in as an honorable manner as possible and we should encourage our sons to act accordingly so that more and more pornography and prostitution become passe'.

PS-I didn't mean to call you a cretin, only that the idea of legalizing prostitution is a cretin like idea, hope you can appreciate the difference.

[whitetrshsoldier]

To both Nick_A and Juice:

I personally value the "nuclear structure" of the traditional family. I understand that it often offers financial and emotional support, while simultaneously promoting the best functioning of society.

However, what I cannot support is people attempting to impart their will upon me and my personal choices. I can honestly say that I've never hired a prostitute, been to a strip club only once for my 21st birthday, and don't care for pornography. But I WILL NOT TOLERATE some jerk in Washington D.C. telling me that he knows what is better for me more-so than I do.

Because the truth is there are a lot of people who do these things, friends of mine included, who are very highly functioning individuals, and who's contribution to society far out-paces their "morally superior" counterparts [many of whom are SO MORAL that they are now sitting at home collecting a government paycheck, sucking off of Obama's generous teet; but they'd NEVER be caught watching porn or at a strip club, right?]. I'd say my accomplished friends possess the right moral compass in this case, as they still support themselves, but you would both disagree. So who's right?

Once we allow them to dictate personal morality for any man, how do you suppose we stop them? Where do we draw the line? If it's not at a consensual act between two adults in private, then where is it?

[Nick_A]

To both Nick_A and Juice:

I personally value the "nuclear structure" of the traditional family. I understand that it often offers financial and emotional support, while simultaneously promoting the best functioning of society.

However, what I cannot support is people attempting to impart their will upon me and my personal choices. I can honestly say that I've never hired a prostitute, been to a strip club only once for my 21st birthday, and don't care for pornography. But I WILL NOT TOLERATE some jerk in Washington D.C. telling me that he knows what is better for me more-so than I do.

Because the truth is there are a lot of people who do these things, friends of mine included, who are very highly functioning individuals, and who's contribution to society far out-paces their "morally superior" counterparts [many of whom are SO MORAL that they are now sitting at home collecting a government paycheck, sucking off of Obama's generous teet; but they'd NEVER be caught watching porn or at a strip club, right?]. I'd say my accomplished friends possess the right moral compass in this case, as they still support themselves, but you would both disagree. So who's right?

Once we allow them to dictate personal morality for any man, how do you suppose we stop them? Where do we draw the line? If it's not at a consensual act between two adults in private, then where is it?

There's a difference between social values and what people do. Legalizing prostitution doesn't effect the guy hiring a girl for an hour. However legalizing prostitution means celebrated national public brothels. Young girls are enticed into it for money and fame as they sacrifice their inner quality so consequently the societal inner quality. If women uphold the quality within society, why glamorize through national legalization what cheapens it for fame and fortune? Why put such a burden on young women to deny fashionable prostitution for the sake of opening to their natural feelings for inner quality and sexual discretion?

It's not a matter of govt. telling us what not to do but of a public recognition of the values that preserve a free society.

Do you ralize that in less then 50 years America will probably be a bankrupt cess pool for selling out the principles and recognition of the obligations that made it a free nation. When a kid asks why did you let it happen, why didn't you defend standards, what will you say? I had my rights.

[whitetrshsoldier]

Okay, Nick, how about this; decriminalization.

Not "legalization", where everything was allowed to occur out in the open, but rather "de-criminalization", whereby people could not be prosecuted for what they do in their own houses or other private locations [technically, everything should be subject to the 4th Amendment anyways, but who are we kidding - nobody recognizes Constitutional rights anymore ].

[Eckhart Aurelius Hughes]

Nick_A, it seems to me you are contradicting yourself. How can you on one hand say you support a "free society" and then on the other hand say you want big government regulating the personal, consensual choices of competent adults? How can you oppose the free market so clearly and say you are doing it because you want to keep the free society. That I don't understand.

But what I do understand of you argument, Nick_A, is the claim that legalization of prostitution is tantamount to promotion of prostitution. I disagree with this claim. Firstly, as I clearly argued in my other posts in this thread and in the blog post, prohibition of prostitution does not stop prostitution form occurring; prohibition makes prostitution more dangerous and disables us from regulating it. You wouldn't say that having a more dangerous STD-ridden black market filled with many unwilling sex slaves of all ages is more conducive to a 'free society' than a regulated, legal market of consenting adults; would you? Legalization of prostitution doesn't promote prostitution but rather enables us to regulate it and discourages sex slavery, underage prostitution and STD-filled prostitution. To stress this point further, it may currently be legal for one to shove a battery up his own butt and eat lit candles, but I would not say the legalization of those ridiculous activities is tantamount to promotion of them, nor would I say that criminalization of them promotes a free society.

Sorry WTS but I am going to have to disappoint. Being a man of experience, not only my own but also through conversations with men who have similarly availed themselves of various aspects of life I can honestly say with no trepidation that had I known I would meet my wife I would have waited for her. Sure one can say that I am lucky, but the men who comprise my circle of friends and acquaintances value family above anything else and live their lives IAW that priority, children love mothers but learn from fathers.

We have to respect, defend and honor woman. That is how we honor ourselves as men. I watch Gladiator at least once a week since one of the underlying values it expresses is that point of view. I have raised my son with that perspective and I am grateful that he is becoming a better man than I am since I talk to him about intimacy, love and respect, and how adopting those precepts will make him a better man.

[...]I believe that we should look at women and approach our dealings with them in as an honorable manner as possible and we should encourage our sons to act accordingly so that more and more pornography and prostitution become passe'.

I think I agree with all of that Juice. But I do not think it supports national or statewide prohibition of prostitution.

Please note, I am not promoting or encouraging prostitution. If I had a daughter, I would very, very strongly discourage or disallow her from engaging in it. There are many things that are legal or that I want to be legal that I would not do, that I would not allow my future children to do, or when they're older would strongly discourage them from doing. While I support legalizing or at least decriminalizing prostitution, I would still support programs that discourage it by educating the public of the risks, taxing it, etc. Indeed, the main reason I want it legalized (and regulated and taxed) is because that would be much safer for women, both those who voluntarily choose to engage in it and those who are violently forced to do it when it is illegal and thus run by black market thugs.

[Juice]

I believe that we, in many things, must challenge ourselves to take the high road and circumvent expedience for the ultimate good, or rather how we should expect how that ultimate good is best expressed from the onset.

I suggest we look to Holland as an example. Despite having legalized prostitution and "confined" it, prostitution is heavily taxed and has gone underground as a result. It also promotes a heavy illegal drug trade which causes government corruption and the global slave trade. The age of consent in Holland is also young, promoting pedophilia.

I believe we have to be able to look at some things holistically. At least if prostitution is kept illegal the rest of society grows into a value system which promotes the sanctity of personal worth, a place to go where a better view of life can be realized.

I don't believe that expecting and promoting a positive value system negates the value of individual expression has long as we also promote the value of expectations that transcend the negative for positive expressions of self.

[whitetrshsoldier]

I suggest we look to Holland as an example. Despite having legalized prostitution and "confined" it, prostitution is heavily taxed and has gone underground as a result. It also promotes a heavy illegal drug trade which causes government corruption and the global slave trade. The age of consent in Holland is also young, promoting pedophilia.

I believe we have to be able to look at some things holistically. At least if prostitution is kept illegal the rest of society grows into a value system which promotes the sanctity of personal worth, a place to go where a better view of life can be realized.

Three points:

1) Why should we tax them any more than at a flat rate? Maybe while we're decriminalizing them, we could CRIMINALIZE "progressive" taxation for what it really is; thievery.

2) Who's "higher ground" are we upholding? Who gets to define it, and why? What's your justification for preventing somebody from practicing the lifestyle they want once they're grown adults? Are you going to take away my red meat and beer next? I know those aren't responsible "life choices" either.

3) ....

I don't believe that expecting and promoting a positive value system negates the value of individual expression has long as we also promote the value of expectations that transcend the negative for positive expressions of self

... 3) Who's "positive value system" are we talking about? Because when you are talking about telling me what I can and can't do with my own body, I consider that a NEGATIVE value system. I say that you are intruding upon my right to be secure in my person, a violation of the 4th Amendment. This is negatively impacting my liberty and freedom. And so I believe that you are more disgusting than any prostitute, as they only harm themselves, while you are harming society with your "holier than thou" mindset.

The "value of expectations"? I would expect that somebody who speaks out against the infringement of person liberties on such a regular basis would not be promoting the Statists agenda when it comes to dictating what I can do as a consenting adult with my body. I can honestly say that you are disappointing the "value of my expectations" here, by thinking that a government can or should determine what is "good" or "not good" for a person to choose to do with themselves.


***** BY THE WAY, you know I love you Juice, ... I'm just making a point, and although this was a very directed statement, it was made towards those who choose to violate my individual liberties, not towards you specifically. Please forgive me if I've offended you *****