Are anger, discompassion and hatred symptoms of weakness?

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Pattern-chaser
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Re: Are anger, discompassion and hatred symptoms of weakness?

Post by Pattern-chaser » January 16th, 2020, 12:48 pm

Repoman05 wrote:
November 11th, 2019, 4:45 am
From the title this seems more of a psychological question than a philosophical one. Note, both philosophy and psychology are pseudoscience. Psychology is a pseudo science of physiology and biology where as philosophy is a pseudoscience of mathematics.
Hmmm. Psychology is a significant subject whose study has been prevented by the struggle (maybe for funding?) to call itself a science, when it is not one. It deals with matters outside the bailiwick of science, covering human feelings, and the like. Stuff that's difficult to quantify and impossible to study via science. Subjective stuff.
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Re: Are anger, discompassion and hatred symptoms of weakness?

Post by fionaimmodest » March 25th, 2020, 2:34 am

These are normal feelings anyone can feel. However, if it is hard for you to control, then these can become your weakness too.

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Re: Are anger, discompassion and hatred symptoms of weakness?

Post by Spyrith » March 28th, 2020, 4:34 am

Pattern-chaser wrote:
January 16th, 2020, 12:48 pm
Repoman05 wrote:
November 11th, 2019, 4:45 am
From the title this seems more of a psychological question than a philosophical one. Note, both philosophy and psychology are pseudoscience. Psychology is a pseudo science of physiology and biology where as philosophy is a pseudoscience of mathematics.
Hmmm. Psychology is a significant subject whose study has been prevented by the struggle (maybe for funding?) to call itself a science, when it is not one. It deals with matters outside the bailiwick of science, covering human feelings, and the like. Stuff that's difficult to quantify and impossible to study via science. Subjective stuff.
I don't see how psychology can be called pseudoscience, it's like saying meteorology is also pseudoscience because it doesn't always produce accurate results.

Psychology is well and truly a science, since it provides many key insights into human behavior that have real, practical effects in everyday society. For instance, psychology plays a role in how a supermarket is laid out and creating walking paths for customers. Psychology also provides insights into choosing certain kinds of music for retail store to encourage people to stay longer in the store and buy more.

There are many, many, many other such examples and not just from retail.

People however don't consider psychology a science because it doesn't have the same predictive power as physics for instance. If you drop a ball from your hand, you can be 100% certain it will reach the ground.

With psychology, it's insights are never 100% certain to be X. Instead, you have something like "10-20% will do X if this happens" and most people don't like such variability in a science.

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Re: Are anger, discompassion and hatred symptoms of weakness?

Post by Pattern-chaser » March 29th, 2020, 11:35 am

Spyrith wrote:
March 28th, 2020, 4:34 am
Pattern-chaser wrote:
January 16th, 2020, 12:48 pm
Psychology is a significant subject whose study has been prevented by the struggle (maybe for funding?) to call itself a science, when it is not one. It deals with matters outside the bailiwick of science, covering human feelings, and the like. Stuff that's difficult to quantify and impossible to study via science. Subjective stuff.
I don't see how psychology can be called pseudoscience
Neither do I. Psychology is not a science. How can it be? Nothing is repeatable. There are almost no rules. Its subjects mis-report or lie when interviewed. Psychology is a subject of huge importance, IMO, but it is not a science. It's much more difficult than science. The questions it tackles are more difficult to answer than those addressed by science. Science can test its theories by trying to falsify them. Psychology cannot.
Spyrith wrote:
March 28th, 2020, 4:34 am
Psychology is well and truly a science, since it provides many key insights into human behavior that have real, practical effects in everyday society. For instance, psychology plays a role in how a supermarket is laid out and creating walking paths for customers. Psychology also provides insights into choosing certain kinds of music for retail store to encourage people to stay longer in the store and buy more.
What you say glorifies psychology - and why not? 😉👍 - but it says nothing about whether psychology is, or even could be, a science.
Spyrith wrote:
March 28th, 2020, 4:34 am
People however don't consider psychology a science because it doesn't have the same predictive power as physics for instance.
This just adds to what I said above, when I outlined the differences between psychology and a science.
Spyrith wrote:
March 28th, 2020, 4:34 am
If you drop a ball from your hand, you can be 100% certain it will reach the ground.
Doesn't that depend on whether you are within a significant gravitational field? 😉 Nothing is certain.
Spyrith wrote:
March 28th, 2020, 4:34 am
With psychology, it's insights are never 100% certain to be X. Instead, you have something like "10-20% will do X if this happens" and most people don't like such variability in a science.
It isn't a question of whether we like it. Science, all science, has some basic ways of working that all sciences use. The type of variability that you describe is difficult for it to deal with. You'd need to fall back on statistics, and therefore constrained to viewing people only as crowds, in quantity, when what you really need is to focus on the individual. The study of humans in large number isn't really psychology, it's more like anthropology combined with statistics. And we all know that statistics is highly misleading - as in inapplicable - when applied to small numbers of people. Science cannot deal with real people, especially in small numbers, unless they can be forced into the role of impartial observer. For the purposes of psychology, people are participants, not observers, and they are partial, not impartial.

To say that psychology is not a science is not an insult. On the contrary, it is a compliment which ackowledges the importance of psychology, and also the inability of science to deal with the more complex of philosophical issues.
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Re: Are anger, discompassion and hatred symptoms of weakness?

Post by Karpel Tunnel » April 2nd, 2020, 6:37 am

Pattern-chaser wrote:
January 16th, 2020, 12:18 pm
Repoman05 wrote:
November 13th, 2019, 3:11 am
You can bring on anger any time you like. It's an emotion that's completely at your disposal to summon or banish as you see fit.
Oh, I think you are badly mistaken if you think we humans can rationally summon and dismiss anger. An angry human is out of (rational) control, or something close to it. In this state, they cannot think or act rationally, except by coincidence. They certainly cannot dismiss their own anger, as you suggest they can. You are writing about Vulcans, not humans, I think. 🤔

Live long and prosper! 😉
You've never been angry and rational at the same time?

I agree with your questioning this ability to rationally summon and dismiss anger. I think one can think one's way to anger, but in general we are not machines that can produce anger via rationality or always get rid of it. Sometimes I can slowly dismiss the trigger that makes me anger by analysis, but not so often.

But one can certainly have any emotion and be rational.

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Re: Are anger, discompassion and hatred symptoms of weakness?

Post by Pattern-chaser » April 2nd, 2020, 1:39 pm

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
April 2nd, 2020, 6:37 am
Pattern-chaser wrote:
January 16th, 2020, 12:18 pm


Oh, I think you are badly mistaken if you think we humans can rationally summon and dismiss anger. An angry human is out of (rational) control, or something close to it. In this state, they cannot think or act rationally, except by coincidence. They certainly cannot dismiss their own anger, as you suggest they can. You are writing about Vulcans, not humans, I think. 🤔

Live long and prosper! 😉
You've never been angry and rational at the same time?

I agree with your questioning this ability to rationally summon and dismiss anger. I think one can think one's way to anger, but in general we are not machines that can produce anger via rationality or always get rid of it. Sometimes I can slowly dismiss the trigger that makes me anger by analysis, but not so often.

But one can certainly have any emotion and be rational.
Seneca wrote:Surely no one would choose to hit a foe so hard as to have his hand get stuck in the wound and be unable to withdraw from the blow. But anger is a weapon of just this type.
An overpowering emotion such as anger over-rides and (temporarily, one hopes) submerges rationality. I don't believe the two can usefully coexist. If you arre rational and controlled, you are not angry. If you are angry and out of control, you are not rational.
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Re: Are anger, discompassion and hatred symptoms of weakness?

Post by Karpel Tunnel » April 4th, 2020, 7:29 am

Pattern-chaser wrote:
April 2nd, 2020, 1:39 pm
Seneca wrote:Surely no one would choose to hit a foe so hard as to have his hand get stuck in the wound and be unable to withdraw from the blow. But anger is a weapon of just this type.
To me this quote has so many unsupported assumptions it is almost meaningless to me. Anger is not a weapon, though one can use expressing anger as a weapon. So we have a specific use being conflated with the entire range of what happens when one is angry. Expressing or feeling anger is not always or even often like hitting a foe soe hard one's hand gets stuck in the wound. I have held a grudge and it has been like this, I suppose, but grudges are a fixed long term pattern which includes anger but also certain cognitive ideas and also certain types of denial. So again a possibility is being turned into a rule.
An overpowering emotion such as anger over-rides and (temporarily, one hopes) submerges rationality.
I do not usually experience anger as overpowering. Just as I do not experience the other emotions as always overpowering. Someoen would have to be being violent against me or someone I love for me to be overpowered by anger. I have had arguments where both I and the other person were angry- which could be heard in our tones of voice and this was commented on by others - and yet both or one of us, in these arguments, were rational. Emotions do not exclude reason. They can. Certainly if I am extremely angry I will be both less likely to form a reasoned argument and less likely to make a good one. But it has to be extreme anger, and again that likely involves some kind of physical attack or a long term dealing out unpleasance at me or someone I care about.

But anger unless in some extreme form need not eliminate reason. I have seen many debates where someone made perfect sense but was clearly angry. Just as one can make sense when afraid, happy, sad, feeling disgust or desire and so on.

I don't believe the two can usefully coexist. If you arre rational and controlled, you are not angry. If you are angry and out of control, you are not rational.
As an example amongst many I had a very heated discussion with a landlord who was not willing to make a woodstove more safe . At times he was very aggressive, made threats. I raised my voice, and one point I yelled at him to shut up and listen to me. I was extremely angry throughout the discussion, but I knew the topic well, I knew the set up was dangerous and i knew the law: he was responsible to see to it the heating in the house was safe. He actually came around once he could see I knew what I was talking about, even though I was almost snarling at times.

It's not a binary thing: presence of anger, no rationality. Rationality present, no anger. Sorry, that's not what reality is like. Yes, extreme anger will likely undermine the ability to reason well, in that time one is peaking. But it ain't binary. As long as one is comfortable with one's own emotions, they can be present and even quite strong and yet one can be rational and make a reasoned argument.

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Re: Are anger, discompassion and hatred symptoms of weakness?

Post by Pattern-chaser » April 4th, 2020, 10:26 am

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
April 4th, 2020, 7:29 am
Certainly if I am extremely angry I will be both less likely to form a reasoned argument and less likely to make a good one.
This is my point, I think. 👍
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