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If there is a God, why is there evil?

Discuss philosophical questions regarding theism (and atheism), and discuss religion as it relates to philosophy. This includes any philosophical discussions that happen to be about god, gods, or a 'higher power' or the belief of them. This also generally includes philosophical topics about organized or ritualistic mysticism or about organized, common or ritualistic beliefs in the existence of supernatural phenomenon.
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GaryLouisSmith
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by GaryLouisSmith » September 13th, 2019, 6:51 am

Belindi wrote:
September 13th, 2019, 6:45 am
It is an unfair practice . Please continue to rise above it.

I don't know anything about morality among the gods in legend and tradition. If there are any such legends and traditions I bet they are due to humans trying in our puny way to make sense of chaos.
I am really quite baffled about how to reply to a materialist who doesn't believe in the gods. I think a productive conversation may in fact be impossible. I'm sure you think I am just a dunce. What to do?

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LuckyR
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by LuckyR » September 13th, 2019, 11:48 am

GaryLouisSmith wrote:
September 12th, 2019, 7:46 pm
Belindi wrote:
September 12th, 2019, 3:32 am
What is the difference between humans and gods? Are all gods good ? If so how ? Is religion better when when gods pertain only to individuals?

The concepts of good and bad loose their meanings when gods are subjective because good and bad are meaningless unless they relate to the other i.e. the not-self.

wrote Karpel Tunnel. Jesus was son of Joseph. Jesus Christ was son of God. Christians mean incarnation of God when they say 'son of God'. Religious Jews mean a good Jew when they say 'son of God'.

I'd mean a good man if I were to say 'son of God'. I can think of many sons of God most of them obscure people whose sex and religious devotions if any are irrelevant to their stature.
The difference between humans and gods is that humans are always striving, often in contradictory ways, for the Good, while the gods have no such concern. Any god who is not immoral is no god. Humans are tied to the good with a golden chain. That chain must be broken. Today moralism has taken over philosophy and it is killing philosophy.
Huh? There are plenty of immoral gods.
"As usual... it depends."

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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Karpel Tunnel » September 13th, 2019, 12:04 pm

LuckyR wrote:
September 13th, 2019, 11:48 am
GaryLouisSmith wrote:
September 12th, 2019, 7:46 pm
Any god who is not immoral is no god.
Huh? There are plenty of immoral gods.
I added emphasis to his quote.

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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Belindi » September 13th, 2019, 12:54 pm

GaryLouisSmith wrote:
I am really quite baffled about how to reply to a materialist who doesn't believe in the gods. I think a productive conversation may in fact be impossible. I'm sure you think I am just a dunce. What to do?
I'm not a materialist in any sense.What 'the gods ' means to me is forces beyond control that impinge on every life. Naturally , people personify these forces.

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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by LuckyR » September 13th, 2019, 1:24 pm

Karpel Tunnel wrote:
September 13th, 2019, 12:04 pm
LuckyR wrote:
September 13th, 2019, 11:48 am


Huh? There are plenty of immoral gods.
I added emphasis to his quote.
Sorry, the triple negative threw me off. In that case, there are plenty of purportedly moral gods, as well.
"As usual... it depends."

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Felix
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Felix » September 13th, 2019, 2:03 pm

LuckyR: In that case, there are plenty of purportedly moral gods, as well.
Yes, in fact a recent roll call of the gods shows that the moral ones remain in the majority, therefore sentient life continues to exist in the Universe.

Can this conversation get any sillier?!
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin

GaryLouisSmith
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by GaryLouisSmith » September 13th, 2019, 7:29 pm

Belindi wrote:
September 13th, 2019, 12:54 pm
GaryLouisSmith wrote:
I am really quite baffled about how to reply to a materialist who doesn't believe in the gods. I think a productive conversation may in fact be impossible. I'm sure you think I am just a dunce. What to do?
I'm not a materialist in any sense.What 'the gods ' means to me is forces beyond control that impinge on every life. Naturally , people personify these forces.
If all those forces that people personify are natural forces, i.e. forces of the material world, such as wind and fire and death and sexual desire and family and terror, then you are a materialist. Yes, I think you are a materialist.

GaryLouisSmith
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by GaryLouisSmith » September 13th, 2019, 7:44 pm

LuckyR wrote:
September 13th, 2019, 1:24 pm
Karpel Tunnel wrote:
September 13th, 2019, 12:04 pm


I added emphasis to his quote.
Sorry, the triple negative threw me off. In that case, there are plenty of purportedly moral gods, as well.
There are two ways to refer to the gods. One can mean those gods found in mythology and folk tales that have come down to us through time. Or one can mean the gods one has encountered personally in life. In either case, I think one only sees beings that one would call immoral. Mythology and folk tales (and fairy tales) are filled with violence: killing and rape and theft, including kidnapping. And I think any personal encounter with a god is "hair-raising". The dominant feeling is dread. And if one is spared and feels a god's mercy and then joy, it is because one has avoided death. Then one falls in love with one's potential killer. What are these "moral" gods you refer to? I don't think they exist. Even the Judeo-Christian, Islamic God is frightening and could kill you at any instant for no reason. And he is a jealous god. When his jealousy is aroused all hell break loose I say that as one who prays to Jesus. Everywhere you look in the spirit world there is violence and danger.

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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by LuckyR » September 14th, 2019, 2:08 am

GaryLouisSmith wrote:
September 13th, 2019, 7:44 pm
LuckyR wrote:
September 13th, 2019, 1:24 pm


Sorry, the triple negative threw me off. In that case, there are plenty of purportedly moral gods, as well.
There are two ways to refer to the gods. One can mean those gods found in mythology and folk tales that have come down to us through time. Or one can mean the gods one has encountered personally in life. In either case, I think one only sees beings that one would call immoral. Mythology and folk tales (and fairy tales) are filled with violence: killing and rape and theft, including kidnapping. And I think any personal encounter with a god is "hair-raising". The dominant feeling is dread. And if one is spared and feels a god's mercy and then joy, it is because one has avoided death. Then one falls in love with one's potential killer. What are these "moral" gods you refer to? I don't think they exist. Even the Judeo-Christian, Islamic God is frightening and could kill you at any instant for no reason. And he is a jealous god. When his jealousy is aroused all hell break loose I say that as one who prays to Jesus. Everywhere you look in the spirit world there is violence and danger.
I think you are confusing "moral" with "benevolent".
"As usual... it depends."

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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by LuckyR » September 14th, 2019, 2:12 am

Felix wrote:
September 13th, 2019, 2:03 pm
LuckyR: In that case, there are plenty of purportedly moral gods, as well.
Yes, in fact a recent roll call of the gods shows that the moral ones remain in the majority, therefore sentient life continues to exist in the Universe.

Can this conversation get any sillier?!
Well, the subject matter exist within the minds and imaginations of individuals and groups of humans and therefore are saddled with human traits, even though they are themselves not human. Not dissimilar to arguing about attributes of fictional literary characters.
"As usual... it depends."

GaryLouisSmith
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by GaryLouisSmith » September 14th, 2019, 2:16 am

LuckyR wrote:
September 14th, 2019, 2:08 am
GaryLouisSmith wrote:
September 13th, 2019, 7:44 pm


There are two ways to refer to the gods. One can mean those gods found in mythology and folk tales that have come down to us through time. Or one can mean the gods one has encountered personally in life. In either case, I think one only sees beings that one would call immoral. Mythology and folk tales (and fairy tales) are filled with violence: killing and rape and theft, including kidnapping. And I think any personal encounter with a god is "hair-raising". The dominant feeling is dread. And if one is spared and feels a god's mercy and then joy, it is because one has avoided death. Then one falls in love with one's potential killer. What are these "moral" gods you refer to? I don't think they exist. Even the Judeo-Christian, Islamic God is frightening and could kill you at any instant for no reason. And he is a jealous god. When his jealousy is aroused all hell break loose I say that as one who prays to Jesus. Everywhere you look in the spirit world there is violence and danger.
I think you are confusing "moral" with "benevolent".
You may be right. How does that change anything I wrote?

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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by GaryLouisSmith » September 14th, 2019, 2:18 am

LuckyR wrote:
September 14th, 2019, 2:12 am
Felix wrote:
September 13th, 2019, 2:03 pm


Yes, in fact a recent roll call of the gods shows that the moral ones remain in the majority, therefore sentient life continues to exist in the Universe.

Can this conversation get any sillier?!
Well, the subject matter exist within the minds and imaginations of individuals and groups of humans and therefore are saddled with human traits, even though they are themselves not human. Not dissimilar to arguing about attributes of fictional literary characters.
Should I infer from that that you are a philosophical idealist and not a philosophical realist?

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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Felix » September 14th, 2019, 4:52 am

GaryLouisSmith: One can mean those gods found in mythology and folk tales that have come down to us through time. Or one can mean the gods one has encountered personally in life.

You have had a personal encounter with a God? Please describe it. And how would one recognize a god, especially if it bears no resemblance to any mythological god?
"We do not see things as they are; we see things as we are." - Anaïs Nin

GaryLouisSmith
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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by GaryLouisSmith » September 14th, 2019, 5:03 am

Felix wrote:
September 14th, 2019, 4:52 am
GaryLouisSmith: One can mean those gods found in mythology and folk tales that have come down to us through time. Or one can mean the gods one has encountered personally in life.

You have had a personal encounter with a God? Please describe it. And how would one recognize a god, especially if it bears no resemblance to any mythological god?
https://www.dropbox.com/s/9cw2ljlouz5ym ... G.pdf?dl=0

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Re: If there is a God, why is there evil?

Post by Belindi » September 14th, 2019, 5:26 am

GaryLouisSmith wrote:
If all those forces that people personify are natural forces, i.e. forces of the material world, such as wind and fire and death and sexual desire and family and terror, then you are a materialist. Yes, I think you are a materialist.
All right, if you mean by 'materialist' someone who thinks these forces/gods really exist.

Then would an idealist be someone who thinks nature has no natural categories such that If all those forces that people personify are natural forces,( i.e. forces of the material world, such as wind and fire and death and sexual desire and family and terror, ) are mind dependent ?

If so then I think both are true. Those forces are mind dependent, and those forces materially exist beyond minds. Both are true in equal measure. It's perfectly possible to oscillate between materialism and idealism without contradiction, because besides gods of wind, fire, thunder, sexual desire, terror, war and so forth , nature includes human minds. Human minds / intellect personified by the goddess Athena.

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